Talk:Icesave dispute

Past tense

lotsa past tenses are used in this article, what is that about? --62.251.21.22 (talk) 14:52, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Disregard of Icelandic Taxpayers

the article disregards that icelandic taxpayers will be providing the "full refund" every other country is recieving, creating discrimination as Icelandic citizens have lost, on average, 33% of their savings. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.149.9.9 (talk) 19:12, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

The article doesn't disregard it at all – it is simply untrue. Physchim62 (talk) 20:17, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't really know what the OP was trying to say here. It is, of course, true that the nation hardest hit by the collapse of the Icelandic banks is (duh) the people of Iceland. Lots of people had a substantial part of their savings in the various—heavily promoted—funds of the banks. Those funds were decimated in the collapse. I'm not sure where the 33% number comes from or whether it is correct. It could plausibly be correct under some definitions. But this is material that would probably better be handled in the 2008 Icelandic financial crisis article. Haukur (talk) 20:37, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

As I'm sure you realise, I'm not disputing that individual Icelanders are the worst hit by this fiasco, merely the assertion that Icelandic taxpayers would end up paying the full cost of compensation. Physchim62 (talk) 22:40, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, indeed, of course. Haukur (talk) 23:33, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Outdated information

At the moment the article concentrates on the legal struggle to resolve the Icesave Dispute. In fact, at least in the Netherlands and the UK most customers were compensated by now and the situation with Kaupthing Edge in Germany also seems to be close to a solution.BjoernZ (talk) 18:41, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Icesave agreement, NPOV issues?

An Icesave settlement agreement has been negotiated and is being discussed at Althing, the Icelandic parliament. This agreement is only vaguely discussed in the article. There has been a lot of discussion about it, especially in Iceland as many Icelanders feel it's unfair. International media are increasingly covering the Icelandic side of the case and a recent leading article in Financial Times was sympathetic to Icelanders. I wasn't able to find the leader but this article discusses it: [[1]]. This article, although arguably not from a major source, covers the Icelandic POV and provides a link to an opinion article by Iceland's PM which was published on FT: [[2]]. I would argue that given the recent developments, this article is somewhat not from a NPOV as it doesn't really discuss the Icelandic POV. I would improve it instead of putting the blame on other Wikipedia editors but I have some very strong opinions on the matter and I feel like a more neutral perspective is needed. Or I don't know. 66.117.142.227 (talk) 03:40, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Size aparently does matter

Since the Darling and his bullywhip have stated, that the UK only guarantees deposits inside the UK, isn't it the pinnacle of hypocrisy to demand reparations to UK savers from abroad? All the best! 157.157.70.111 (talk) 17:48, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

skewed legal discussion

This is taken straight from the EU laws. Directive 94/19/EC "stipulate that the level and scope of cover offered by a home Member State scheme to depositors at branches located in another Member State should not exceed the maximum level and scope offered by the corresponding scheme in the host Member State"

This says straight that even if local authorities and corporations have coverage in the homestate, the coverage should be the same as in the host state. this in regards to the larger corporations and local authorities not being covered under britains own scheme.

also, straight from the laws them selves "Whereas this Directive may not result in the Member States' or their competent authorities' being made liable in respect of depositors if they have ensured that one or more schemes guaranteeing deposits or credit institutions themselves and ensuring the compensation or protection of depositors under the conditions prescribed in this Directive have been introduced and officially recognized"

The authorities should NOT be held responsible as long as the scheme has been set up and been recognized, which it must have been to be able to set up branches in both britain and holland. see

"Whereas in principle this Directive requires every credit institution to join a deposit-guarantee scheme; whereas the Directives governing the admission of any credit institution which has its head office in a non-member country, and in particular the First Council Directive (77/780/EEC) of 12 December 1977 on the coordination of the laws, regulations and administrative provisions relating to the taking up and pursuit of the business of credit institutions (1) allow Member States to decide whether and subject to what conditions to permit the branches of such credit institutions to operate within their territories; whereas such branches will not enjoy the freedom to provide services under the second paragraph of Article 59 of the Treaty, nor the right of establishment in Member States other than those in which they are established; whereas, accordingly, a Member State admitting such branches should decide how to apply the principles of this Directive to such branches in accordance with Article 9 (1) of Directive 77/780/EEC and with the need to protect depositors and maintain the integrity of the financial system; whereas it is essential that depositors at such branches should be fully aware of the guarantee arrangements which affect them;"

More arguments against the national responsibility for the non-solvency of the banks.

Directive 94/19/EC, Article 3,1 "- the system must not consist of a guarantee granted to a credit institution by a Member State itself or by any of its local or regional authorities"

These parts above, i would be happy if someone could add them, i dont know how to make them "pretty" with boxes for the law quotes etc

This whole page lacks, in my opinion, almost all the legal arguments for icelands refusal of coverage.

Although this may all be too late, since the iceland Althingi has just passed the so called ICEsave law, which accepts the debt. Over 10% of the nation have already signed a petition for the president to veto these laws though. Davidolafsson (talk) 01:00, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Hi David. As far as I know, the position of the English and the Dutch was indeed that the scope of protection offered by Iceland within Iceland should not exceed that of the foreign (i.e. Dutch/English branch).

Following this, the moment Icesave (a branch of Landsbanki) went bankrupt and Landsbanki too Iceland could basically do 2 things. Let it go bankrupt and have both the Icelandic and the English/Dutch clients solve the problem; or provide equal protection to all.

The first option was impossible for Iceland, as that would mean (together with the Kaupthing bankruptcy) that the majority of normal Icelandic citizens would loose all their money, including money needed to pay rent, energy and food. In other words, if they would have taken this approach the would have reduced homestate Iceland economy to a barter economy. Thus the Iceland government created new Landsbanki in which only part of the account of (old) Landsbanki (Icesave was part of this bank) were rescued.

This made Iceland as a state taking up responsibility for its own population and guaranteeing the money. As far as I know, the English and the Dutch then stated: If you take responsibility to protect your own account, you as a state are now also responsible for the foreign accounts. I.e Iceland made itself responsible by reimbursing its own citizens. (Note that some parties in the Netherlands seriously considered opening a case against Iceland as they considered the creation of New Landsbanki some kind of bankruptcy fraud as part of the claims (those by Icelandic citizens) were given preference over those of others (the English and Dutch account holders) - The current deal also helped prevent that)

So I don't think the argument you present is a clear cut as you brought it. Iceland had to save its homeland economy, but in doing so made itself responsible for the foreign accounts too. Arnoutf (talk) 09:09, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Although i see the reasons and logic you are pointing too, the single strongest point has to still be that the nation cannot be the security for the insurance scheme. it says so quite clearly "- the system must not consist of a guarantee granted to a credit institution by a Member State itself or by any of its local or regional authorities" This to me says clearly that the state itself should never fall victim to such a situation as it is now. Davidolafsson (talk) 15:15, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

True, if the Icelandic state had not adopted responsibility for the savings security (by creating New Landsbanki) I am sure that the legal position of the Dutch and English would have been hopeless.

All in all, I understand your position, but it seems that the Icelandic government found no support for your legal position. Note that apart from the un-ethical the blackmail in relation to IMF support - EU entry; the Dutch government stated they would be starting international legal action against Iceland if the treaty would not be ratified, so the Dutch think their legal position is strong enough.

We just have to be very careful here not to engage in interesting discussion that in the end come down to original research. So if you can find legal reports supporting your idea, of course that would make a case for adding this alternative view. But by synthesising this ourselves, or adopting it from the media, I think we do not follow the idea of verifiability. Arnoutf (talk) 18:00, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Point of Dec 2009 bill?

I can't quite reconcile these two sentences from the article's last two paragraphs:

On 28 August 2009, Iceland's parliament voted 34–15 (with 14 abstentions) to approve on a bill (commonly referred to as the Icesave bill) to repay Great Britain and the Netherlands more than $5 billion

vs.

In December 2009, the Althing passed a bill to repay the $5bn to the United Kingdom and the Netherlands[84]. However, massive protests followed, culminating in a petition to put the issue before a referendum[85]. On January 5, 2010, the bill was vetoed by the Icelandic president.

Why the need for the Dec 2009 bill; wasn't the Icesave bill already in place to pay out $5bn? What difference would the Dec 2009 bill have made? Why did Icelanders protest the Dec 2009 bill but not the Icesave bill? AxelBoldt (talk) 19:26, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Both bills agreed on most things (payback 2015-2024; 5.5% interest) but the August bill had the additional condition (set by parliament) that payback would be dependent on the recovery of Icelandic GDP and would be limited at a maximum yearly payback at a fraction of economic growth. And that all remaining debts (i.e. that portion of the debt that could not be repaid according to above restrictions) would be cancelled in 2024. The Dutch and English did not accept these additional conditions (put in place unilateraly by the Icelandic parliament) requiring renegotiation and a new bill; the December bill. Arnoutf (talk) 19:51, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Not quite true. The loan agreements have been modified to include the repayment cap. However, the new bill removes the limit date on the state guarantee. It was never true that the debt would be "cancelled" in 2024 if it wasn't paid back, but the August bill said that the Icelandic State would no longer guarantee the debt after 2024, which was unacceptable to the British and the Dutch. Physchim62 (talk) 21:14, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

This is a more complete comparison published by the Icelandic Parliament. Physchim62 (talk) 21:16, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Matters related to Icesave

1. Icelands total national debt, it's just simply astronomical. Alot of people are unaware of this and think that Iceland stands and falls with this whole Icesave mess. It wouldn't be brave to estimate that Icelands complete debt is something like six times bigger than Icesave is so Icelands hole is much deeper than people realize and certainly much much deeper than Icesave only. --Here2Disrupt (talk) 01:21, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Iceland's sovereign debt (ie, the debt of the Iceland state) is still lower than many EU countries, especially when you consider that Iceland's pensions were fully funded before the economic crisis (unlike most EU countries). The killer is Iceland's domestic debt, ie the debts which had been run up by Icelandic companies and households: these truly are astronomical, especially as most of the debt was denominated in foreign currencies.

Icesave will have no effect whatsoever on the Icelandic sovereign debt until 2016 and, even then, the effect (if any) will be far less than the €3.8bn headline figure. Physchim62 (talk) 09:44, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

2. No sovereign nation can be forced to pay up anything really and those were privatized banks receiving foreign currency and operating abroad, I can not see how those Icesave accounts had anything to do with the Icelandic government. --Here2Disrupt (talk) 01:21, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Much of the Icesave money was effectively brought to Iceland in the form of loans to Icelandic companies and households. When the Icelandic government nationalized Landsbanki's Icelandic operations (now known as NBI), it separated these debts from the deposits which supplied the money. There was a long, long debate over the terms of compensation for the nationalization, which really ought to feature in the article as well. To be brief, the compensation has now been agreed, and the compensation agreement is undoubtedly the reason why Britain and the Netherlands agreed to the cap on Icelandic state repayments over Icesave.

Between the remaining Landsbanki assets (estimated at £4bn) and the compensation to be paid by NBI, there should be enough to pay about 90% of the top tranche of secured creditors, which includes the Icesave bill. The Icelandic state will make up the difference (but only for the Icesave deposit insurance, not for the rest of the secured debts). Physchim62 (talk) 09:44, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

One sees this 90% estimate a lot but it's important to realize that this isn't money on hand for anyone - it will take years to sell off the assets to maximize value and meanwhile the Icesave debt accrues substantial interest. It's the interest payments that have a lot of people in Iceland worried. Haukur (talk) 11:20, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes, but the assets themselves also accrue interest, something that seems lost on Icelandic commentators. It's ridiculously simple to see that the debt would never be paid off under the GDP cap if all the money had to come from the State, yet the UK and Dutch governments have accepted the GDP cap on the state guarantee (ie, on payments from the general budget). That must mean that the UK and Dutch governments are convinced that most of the money will come from Landsbanki assets (either the assets outside of Iceland or the compensation from NBI). Physchim62 (talk) 15:56, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

The problem is that Iceland can't use the Landsbanki assets to pay the interest costs. Even if the assets would prove to be worth more than 100% of the needed money, Iceland would still be out some 120 billion ISK for interest payments. And that's the a very optimistic scenario indeed. Haukur (talk) 12:11, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

The assets are going to accure very little interests and are going to be sold off on a firesale. The Dutch and the UK governments did accept that GDP cap but without any time limit, meaning that the thing could just keep on rising indefinantly and Iceland might be paying off this extortion for the next 500 years. --Here2Disrupt (talk) 16:18, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Currency	from/to customers
	Deposits	Loans
GBP	988.611	446.871
EUR	253.441	602.535
ISK	345.190	550.588
All figures in billions of Icelandic krónur (ISK).

You might as well read Morgunblaðið if you want to believe that sort of rubbish. This is not extortion, it is an attempt at state-sponsored theft. The figures quoted opposite come from Landsbanki's second-quarter 2008 interim financial statement. Notice the huge disparity between the deposits taken in pounds sterling and the UK assets generated by them, even if one assumes that all the loans in GBP were made in the UK. Notice also that there were far more loans made in ISK than deposits in that currency. Landsbanki was fuelling a credit bubble in Iceland based on foreign deposits, that is funelling money from abroad into Iceland. Now the theives-in-chief pretend that they can keep the capital gains they made from selling (often quite literally) the family properties at the time of the boom, and that the poor buggers who paid them the money will effectively have to pay twice. No point in looking across the North Atlantic for the source of Iceland's problems, it is far, far closer to Reykjavík. Physchim62 (talk) 16:58, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

It can be argued that the creation of New Landsbanki is bankruptcy fraud, i.e. taking out some part of a bankrupt company to the benefit of some of the people the company owns money to; in this case only Icelandic nationals. The British and Dutch realised that declaring this as fraud by the Icelandic government would mean that about 1/3 of the Icelandic citizens would see all their money blocked overnight, including household money essential to pay the rent, the heating and buy food. That the British and the Dutch wanted some compensation for their own citizens is not more than logical; if this was played out completely fair all assets of Landsbanki would be split according to money owned equally (in time and amount) between the Dutch British and Icelandic. The Icelandic people should be thankful that the British and Dutch did not exercise their right to declare the moving of assets from Landsbanki to New Lansbanki fraud, as that would have meant that the Icelandic domestic crisis would be much much worse. Arnoutf (talk) 18:23, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

It's unfair to call it bankruptcy fraud, as the Icelandic government (even the previous bunch of crooks and their cronies) has always admitted that it would have to be compensation paid for the nationalisation of the Landsbanki assets in Iceland. However the first proposal put forward by the adminstrators of what is now NBI, suggested that two-thirds of the book-value of Landsbanki's assets in Iceland would have to be written off: needless to say, this was not well received by the creditors, but it says a lot about the integrity of the people involved. Even with a new government in place, the compensation agreement was not concluded until October 2009, almost exactly a year after Landsbanki was nationalised. Official details of the agreement seem to have disappeared from Icelandic government sites in the last few days, one wonders why. Physchim62 (talk) 22:44, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree that the Icelandic agreeing that compensation should be paid distinguishes it from fraud. However, it can be argued that this distinction depends on acceptance of the agreements with the creditors (i.e. UK and NL). The Presidents veto is blocking these agreements pushing back everything into the grey area. Arnoutf (talk) 20:12, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Those were PRIVATE banks not state owned doing business in foreign countries in foreign currency. And I'm supposed to pay you suckers something for doing business with a private company. I think not, doesn't work like that profits privatized and the debts nationalized. Take that begging elsewhere.--Here2Disrupt (talk) 01:18, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

That's an extremely uneducated opinion that you just expressed there. The state has paid for any and all valuables transfered to New Landsbanki from the old one, it would even be willing to hand over the New Landsbanki to Holland and Brittain but they do not want it, they claim that running a bank just isn't something that their institutions are designed to do but if they did well then your argument would be impossible to even suggest. The same was done with Kaupthing and Glitnir, there were created Nýja Kaupþing later Arion banki and Íslandsbanki and those were turned over as working enterprises to the owners of the debt that the old companies owe. This "FAVOUR" which the Brittish and Dutch are supposed to have made for us is just utter rubbish. 1/3 of all Icelandic citizens having their money blocked, give me a break I need one from such uneducated opinions of people that simply shouldn't be talking about something they know nothing about. As for all the debts that those banks made abroad and the accusation that they were simply stolen out of the banks it is one that I actually agree with but if you want that money back then just go round up Jón Ásgeir and Björgólfur Þór, they'll return it to you after a day or two of torture. I on the other hand a hard working innocent Icelandic citizen don't owe you foreigners a God damn thing and if you want something from me then come and get it, I'll be here waiting.--Here2Disrupt (talk) 18:35, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Also before you attempt to write up any more bullshit stating that Iceland did something illegal with the way it split up the banks then bear in mind that a EES court ruled that Icelands emergancy laws did not violate EU directives and were legally imposed.--Here2Disrupt (talk) 18:40, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

My comment was definitely more "uneducated" then naming the British-Dutch position extortion. There is something to both sides; and Iceland had a decade of being the richest country in Europe based on gambling through its banking system. Now they lost all. Sad but nobody forced Iceland to liberalise the banking system to the extent that it could destroy a national economy. Arnoutf (talk) 18:54, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

The UK and the Dutch are using the IMF and the EU to put pressure on us, threatening us with the most unbelievable far fetched nonsense as well as making other more credible but equally immoral threats. The nonsense coming from these countries has been so far reaching that Gordon Brown himself said in front of the British parliment that he intended to make the people of Iceland pay for the debts of the Singer-Freidlander bank. A bank which was operated, run and registered in Britain and nowhere else, his position on that matter has not to my knowledge ever been repeated by anyone else so Britain is hardly going to start banging on our doors know regarding that institution but the gibberish regarding the matter that came from the man just goes to show the ruthlessness and the despicable hate that you British people have for us as well as your urges to extort us. You're not getting a penny from me though, not now, not ever.--Here2Disrupt (talk) 19:06, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

3. A national referendum in Iceland is scheduled sometime in March regarding this matter and that is a very unique and notable thing, perhaps we should find some way of mentioning it. --Here2Disrupt (talk) 01:21, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes, we should mention it, the article is a few days out of date in that respect. The referendum will probably be held on 20 or 27 February. Physchim62 (talk) 09:44, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

The exact data is not determined yet, but it is indeed interesting. Arnoutf (talk) 18:54, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Early repayment

Moving this down from the previous section, as that discussion is getting very long Physchim62 (talk) 12:54, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

The problem is that Iceland can't use the Landsbanki assets to pay the interest costs. Even if the assets would prove to be worth more than 100% of the needed money, Iceland would still be out some 120 billion ISK for interest payments. And that's the a very optimistic scenario indeed. Haukur (talk) 12:11, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

That's not true. Any money that the Tryggingarsjóður receives from the liquidation of Landsbanki can be used (indeed must be used) to pay off the debt (interest and/or capital, see [3]), and that can happen at any time. Physchim62 (talk) 12:54, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes, as far as the agreement is concerned and you're technically right that an early repayment could be made. But the point that Icelandic commentators stress is that TIF has, by Icelandic law, no claim to compensation for the interest costs. Haukur (talk) 15:51, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

The tryggingarsjóður doesn't have any sort of an absolute priority claim to the assets of Landsbanki so it is not going to recieve everything that comes from the liquidation of the bank. The problem is that it's going to take years, might even take a decade to sell all of the properties held by Landsbanki and while that process is ongoing interest is going to accumulate on the ammount agreed to be repaid to the UK and Holland and the interests on those loans they are not even priority claims to the estate of Landsbanki so the insurance fund is not going to recieve any money at all to pay for those interests leaving Iceland with a huge bill to take care of. Another thing is that the interests of the Icesave loans agreed to by Icelands negotiation comittee are Insanely high, for the first 7 years they ammount to 7% but when Iceland starts to pay off the loans the interest drops to 5,55% and that's still insanely high. Iceland isn't obligated to pay for any of this by neither Icelandic law or EU directives and seeing how the British and the Dutch have complicated this matter into oblivion with their pride and greed I do not think that Iceland should pay even one penny to those nations, it should as a matter of fact seize Landsbankinn and send the UK and the Dutch a bill for all the mess that they've made. The British and the Dutch always had the option to be reasonable about these matters and to do handle this in a diplomatic way but instead they decided to bully little Iceland around, they made their decisions and they should now have to live with them.--Here2Disrupt (talk) 15:17, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Tryggingarsjóður has a top level claim on the assets, but it is not the only entity with such claims, that is true. I believe that Tryggingarsjóður is the simgle largest top level creditor, but I don't have a source to prove it. As for "insanely high" interest rates, they're rather lower than were being charged in the domestic market for ISK loans before the crisis! Ah, but then it was the Vikings who were earning the money, the established families reaping the benefits of huge asset inflation, and the Icelandic government taking in the (ridiculously low) tax returns from the banks. How times can change... Physchim62 (talk) 15:40, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

One thing is highrisk shortterm domestic loans to individuals another completely different thing is a longterm international loan to a sovereign state. Iceland has no money to give to the UK or the Netherlands and this whole hardball bullshit which those nations have given us it's really just politically motivated rubbish, you want our sovereignty, that's the endgoal for you EU nations, you're not going to get that either really so just forget about it. You can feel free to round up Jón Ásgeir and Björgólfur Þór on the other hand, the ones that acctually have your money, you can find them walking the streets of London or driving them in Luxury vehicles.--Here2Disrupt (talk) 16:05, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

My fellow countryman here nicely illustrates one thing which seems lost on foreign commentators and news sources - the Icelanders most opposed to the Icesave agreement are also the ones most opposed to EU membership for Iceland. When Iceland is threatened with EU delays as a consequence of Icesave delays the Morgunblaðið editor and his friends are crying with some very dry tears.

But let's not make this too personal. The various Icelandic legal arguments may well be hogwash but that's not really for us to say - WP:NPOV suggests we need to represent all opinions fairly. Haukur (talk) 16:37, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

That is not completely the case. WP:UNDUE and WP:FRINGE clearly state we should only list mainstream opinions (E.g. the hollow earth theory should not be reported on articles on the earth).

Also per WP:NPOV all sides shoud be represented fairly, but the suggestions made always tend to be made to state that the Icelandic people are unfairly punished and that the English and Dutch tax payers have to suffer for the profits made by the Icelandic owned banks prior to the collapse. We (the Dutch) are already suffering for our own problematic banks, e.g. we had to buy our Belgian owned system bank ABN-AMRO for way too much money to keep our financial system intact. Perhaps Iceland can take over the losses on that bank? Arnoutf (talk) 18:49, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Could you spell out your analogy more clearly? What views on the Icesave dispute do you feel are analogous to the view that the earth is flat? Haukur (talk) 20:02, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

"extortion" for one. But my point was a bit more procedural on your statement that we should "represent all opinions fairly". We should represent mainstream opinions fairly, but stay away from conspiracy theories (per FRINGE and UNDUE). The Icelandic worries with this deal should be noted, but fairly and neutrally. Arnoutf (talk) 20:50, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

There is certainly some fringe conspiracy theory material floating around but I'm not sure if the 'extortion' view can be equated to a 'flat earth' view. Extortion means using coercion to obtain goods from someone not legally obliged to give them. That coercion is being used in this case is manifest and it is a mainstream view in Iceland, even among legal experts, that the Icelandic state does not have a clear legal obligation to bail out TIF. This is probably a less mainstream view outside Iceland but it has been taken up by some foreign commentators. Matthew Yglesias talks about an "extortion racket"[4] and recent articles in the Financial Times have been sympathetic to the Icelandic legal arguments. Haukur (talk) 21:33, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

(redent) The Icelandic legal arguments, insofar as they come from qualified commentators (which most of them don't) should be given the respect they deserve. And why not as well the opinion from Iceland's own Central Bank. "The economy will be fully able to fulfil the Icesave agreements. An assumed 75% recovery ratio on Landsbanki assets, prudent economic policy, and a sizeable trade surplus during the period 2009-2018 will further enhance this capability. There should be an ample margin in the foreign exchange reserves for the entire period." That comment was made, in writing to the Althing, on July 17, that is before the first Icesave bill, before the deal on liquidation of Landsbanki assets and before the acceptance of the GDP-growth cap by Britain and the Netherlands. Not a dickie-bird about that in the Icelandic comments of the last few days, and many gross errors as to the loan agreements which could have been corrected with a simple visit to the website of the Althing. Wikipedia should give Iceland the impartial coverage of these matter that Icelandic citizens deserve, because their own media sources seem utterly incapable of even reading press releases from Icelandic state institutions, let alone doing simple interest calculations! Physchim62 (talk) 21:55, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

The CBI analysis has been extensively covered by Icelandic media and remains hotly debated - its detractors see it as an overly rosy scenario. Haukur (talk) 23:23, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

My dear boy, I do not see how you can consider yourself such an expert on this matter. Lets start at the beginning those predictions from the central bank that Iceland will be able to pay everything no problem are based upon predictions of unprecedented profits from export the likes Iceland has never seen before why during an economic depression is Iceland supposed to become so profitable? Is it the enourmus demand from abroad, get real. Here you can see a realistic calculator for the repayment of the Icelandic debts and input the variables yourself http://mbl.datamarket.net/icesave/ . The Icelandic government is also on a mission to convince the nation to just take the deal and move on so that our application to the EU will be successfull, statements from Icelandic institution can't honestly be taken too seriously. Especially from the central bank since it is practicly run by the IMF.--Here2Disrupt (talk) 22:32, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

"My dear boy", why should I accept your analysis over that of the Central Bank of Iceland? That is your great weakness here. Physchim62 (talk) 23:12, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Example of fringe and conspiracy theory is posted above. Arnoutf (talk) 22:39, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

New article needed?

There is a ton of new information coming out regarding Icesave and reactions to it for example I think taht a news story regarding the reactions of Ögmundur Jónasson which appeared today is something which needs to get incorporated into the article but doing so is no small challange perhaps another article should be written about the matter or a stub or something of the sort made.

The article which I read today and found interesting can be read here http://visir.is/article/20100115/FRETTIR01/18579445 Ögmundur: Svíar handrukkarar Breta og Hollendinga

A translation of the relevant parts of it would go something like the following:

Ögmundur: Swedes the dirty collectors of the British and the Dutch.

The congressman Ögmundur said some harsh words following a press release by Fredrik Reinfeldt the prime minister of Sweden.

Skyldu Svíar skilja að Íslendingar véfengja greiðsluskyldu sína? Skyldu Svíar sklija að greiðsluskilmálarnir eru ósvífin þvingunarúrræði? Skyldu Svíar skilja að þeir eru orðnir handrukkarar Breta og Hollendinga?"

„Kannski finnst Reinfeldt forsætisráðherra það vera í góðu lagi að gerast handrukkari. En hvað skyldi sænsku þjóðinni finnast um þetta nýja hlutverk sitt? Hvað skyldi þjóðinni sem átti Olov Palme finnast um að vera komin í fótgöngulið fjármagnsins gegn fólkinu? Skyldu menn almennt átta sig á því að viðhorfsbreytingin í Evrópu á meðal almennings er vegna þess að fólk er farið að stilla dæminu svona upp: Annars vegar hinir eignalausu. Hins vegar þeir sem töpuðu innistæðum sínum. Almennt finnst fólki ekki sjálfgefið að hinir eignalausu, eða þeir sem eru lasburða og þurfa á velferðarþjónustu að halda, verði látnir blæða til að hinir missi ekki spón úr aski."

Do the Swedes understand that the Icelanders question their obligation to pay? Do the Swedes understand that the paymeant terms are shrewd coercion tactics? Do the Swedes understand that they have become the dirty collectors of the Brits and the Dutch?

Perhaps prime minister Reinfeldt thinks that it's ok to try and strong arm the Icelandic nation. But what does the rest of the Swedish nation think about this new role of theirs? What would the nation that had Olov Palme think about having joined the foot soldiers of the capital against the people? Do men perhaps generally realize that the change in perspective in Europe amongst the common people is because people are starting to put the equation up like this: On one hand those void of possesions. On the other those who lost their deposits. Generally people don't think that it is selfgiven that the one who have nothing or those who are weak and in need of social help be made to bleed so that the others don't lose a penny.

An intersting read and well clearly the material ammasing regarding this matter and the many different sides and perspectives of it seem to be too big for this article to fully do it justice. What do you guys think?--Here2Disrupt (talk) 22:21, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

What is it you exactly propose? In my view the link above seems to be part of the Calimero complex exhibited by several Icelandic editors on this topic. As that view seems to be strong in Iceland it probably deserves a few lines here, on in another article on the Icelandic crisis. But I do not see a separate article around this. Perhaps it would help if you suggest a name for that article, because it is not exactly clear to me what the artilce should be about. Arnoutf (talk) 22:46, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Wikileaks memo

Wikileaks has a purported classified memo from the U.S. embassy dated 13 January 2010 on the subject of the Icesave crisis. One possibility raised is a loan from Norway to cover the debt. Hopefully someone more familiar with the situation can make more sense of the issues discussed. 71.41.210.146 (talk) 05:42, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

The people of Iceland won

This matter is now history, Icelanders won, crooked politicians and foreigners lost, that's all there is to it really. This matter is now over, sure there will be continued negotiations and such for the sake of appearances but the UK and the Netherlands are never going to be able to blackmail Iceland for any of the funds that they were hoping for. Perhaps they'll receive something from the fallen banks but that's all they'll get.

I think that it isn't really balanced to put the referendum into a subsection of the article along with march talks since the referendum wasn't just notable for this matter but a unique phenomenon which has not been seen before on this planet, truly an historic event. The referendum should have its own section.

Ohhh yeah before I hit Save I want to thank the British and Dutch editors of Wikipedia that have edited this article for the interest that they have shown.--Icelandic Viking POWER (talk) 22:12, 11 March 2010 (UTC)