Talk:City of Willoughby

Infobox Update

This page has had its infobox updated to Infobox Australian Place. This update has been automatically preformed by TheJoshBot. Please be aware that poorly filled templates can have infomation lost in the transition that is unknown to the bot. Check the page history for more infomation. The following infomation has been lost in the transition, and will need to be converted to the document prose:

Field Name	Field Value
council	Willoughby City Council
ausborn	56
atsi	0.16
statistical_local_area	8250

RfC Use Independent Liberal/Labor terms

The use of "Independent Liberal/Labor" is a term that is not permitted in elections for parties/candidates or for electoral material, so to use them in lists like these is completely erroneous. Under sections 64 and 180 of the Electoral Act 2017, this is not permitted. You may include a reference to individual party membership in the notes section, but they do not sit under this label, they were not elected as such, they are not permitted to use such labels under NSW law, and it is misleading to describe them so.Siegfried Nugent (talk) 08:52, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

First off, no disputing from me that officially these terms cannot be used on a ballot in NSW and they are illegal - thankfully, Wikipedia infoboxes are not bound by NSW Electoral Act.

As referenced on the page, these respective councillors have self-declared their party memberships, so them being party members is also something that cannot be disputed.

But these infoboxes are also meant to be informative, and describing them as an "independent" ignores that they are - an unendorsed party member, which is exactly where Independent Liberal/Labor labels fit in (as the respective pages for those affilaitions state).

It's not just Willoughby - other councils in NSW, including in 2021, have Ind Lib/Lab councillors precisely to accurately and simply to describe them (see here). Totallynotarandomalt69 (talk) 09:07, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

I would support a reference to informal party affiliation as that is indeed informative and useful, but not including the terms in the official list of parties/affiliations as that is not how they are elected (and they literally cannot be elected as such). Self-published sources like the tally room are not reliable sources, and nowhere in the Willoughby Living article does it use the term "independent liberal" or "independent labor". I can't find any reliable references that this term has been used officially or unofficially to describe these councillors, so it is inaccurate in any case.Siegfried Nugent (talk) 09:12, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

I'm with Totallynotarandomalt69 on this one, I fail to see a legitimate reason to remove them. 5225_C (talk • contributions) 09:10, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

The term is illegal in NSW, and there are no references to back up use of the term. Are they not legitimate reasons? Siegfried Nugent (talk) 09:14, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Sorry what do you mean "no references"? In the message above I cited both the affiliations and the exact term "Independent Liberal" being used at the 2021 local elections! Totallynotarandomalt69 (talk) 09:18, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

No you haven't, both links you used don't back up your argument. The Tally Room is a self-published source. Willoughby Living doesn't even use the terms. You must CITE your sources. I can't find any independent reliable references that back up your use of the term for any Willoughby Councillor, or any other NSW councillor for that matter.Siegfried Nugent (talk) 09:22, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

"I can't find any independent reliable references that back up your use of the term for any Willoughby Councillor, or any other NSW councillor for that matter" because the term is all over the place - "unendorsed Liberal" "Liberal but not endorsed" etc - all of these count as an INDLIB

Also The Tally Room is a source often cited by reputable publications, come on don't resort to attacking the source Totallynotarandomalt69 (talk) 09:26, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Exactly. So you can't claim to use the terms as the only undisputed term. As I said, they should not be used as official descriptors in party lists, but a reference to party membership is useful and I would support that. But "Independent Liberal/Labor" are disputed terms that have very limited use. The Tally room is a useful source, but at the moment it is your only source, and as a self-published source that's not good if we're looking to provide properly referenced articles that accurately present information and don't use terms that aren't used in real life to describe particular people. The Willoughby Living article doesnt even use those terms, with one of the councillors saying: "I am a member of the Liberal Party, but not endorsed, so I am free to act as I see fit." and "I have liberal party membership but sit on council as a full independent."Siegfried Nugent (talk) 09:31, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

I disagree - We would never classify federal or state members as fully independent if they were indeed members of a party, why should we classify local councillors any differently? AmNowEurovision (talk) 09:36, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Where are the references that use this term? If its an invented term, it has no place here. Siegfried Nugent (talk) 09:38, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

The Commonwealth Electoral Act 1918 also bans the term. Do you have any examples where we describe current or recent politicians with the term?Siegfried Nugent (talk) 09:45, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Independent Liberal: https://www.news.com.au/national/victoria/politics/controversial-mp-moira-deeming-to-sue-liberal-leader-after-party-expulsion/news-story/50cc115564d4c2f77d7e0fe7495493fc

Independent Labor: https://www.abc.net.au/listen/programs/hobart-mornings/david-obyrne-to-seek-labor-party-preselection/102696486

Both from 2023 Totallynotarandomalt69 (talk) 09:47, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

I note also that The Tally Room didn't even look at the Willoughby Council election for the 2021 local government elections, so I fail to see how that can be used as a source to describe the afiliations or parties of Willoughby City Councillor, so there are no references provided for the use of the terms "Independent Liberal/Labor" to refer to Willoughby City Councillors.Siegfried Nugent (talk) 09:37, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Surely you agree these councillors have, at the bare minimum, described themselves as a party member yet not endorsed?

Independent Liberal (Australia): "Independent Liberal is a description used in Australian politics, often to designate a politician who is a Liberal Party member but not endorsed by the party at elections"

Independent Labor (Australia): "Independent Labor is a description used in Australian politics, often to designate a politician who is an Australian Labor Party member but not endorsed by the party at elections"

The labels being used here are accurate! Totallynotarandomalt69 (talk) 09:50, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Those are not reliable references, using articles that you created doesn't make it any more true. You have yet to provide any reference to these Willoughby Councillors using, being elected as, or being described with those terms. Again I would support a small line in the "Notes" column saying "Member of the Liberal Party" or as such, but they must be referenced as well.Siegfried Nugent (talk) 09:53, 29 November 2023 (UTC)