Talk:Automotive safety

Archive of past discussion

Archive 1

Active vs passive

Sorry if I am just dumb and ignorant, but the distinction between active and passive safety in this article is just plain wrong. I have quickly read majority of the sourced articles but I have absolutely nowhere found the statement that the seatbelt is an element of active safety. The distinction between active and passive safety is plain and simple - it is between crash avoidance and minimizing injuries once the crash has happened anyway. I haven't bothered to find sourced for this for too long - but I found this one, where it is written plain and simple: http://www.crashtest.com/explanations/safety/index.htm I will wait for a couple of days and if nobody will argue the opposite, I am going to change the article myself. — —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.235.179.170 (talk) 14:40, 2009 March 23 (UTC)

Your definition is plain, and it is simple, but it is not correct. The definitions of active and passive safety in this article are contextually correct and verifiable, and they are well supported by reliable references. What is more, the apparently-contradictory usages of the terminology is discussed in the article. You will need to get consensus here on the talk page before a change can be made of the type you have in mind. Also, please don't forget to sign your comments properly on talk pages. Thanks! —Scheinwerfermann ^T·_C00:37, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Ok, I do not want any edit wars, but please: http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/Home/RoadSafety/BuyingASafeCar/SafetyFeatures.htm This is actually one of the subpages of the pages by which this article itself is sourced! If it does not support my statement, then I don't know what does. Oh yeah, and it was me who wrote the first post. 213.250.34.126 (talk) 18:53, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Definitely agree on avoiding edit wars. Please carefully read the relevant portion of the article and you will understand why your desire to replace the present definition with your preferred definition is not tenable: we have here contradictory usage of the terms "active" and "passive". It can be difficult to accept the notion of a manual seat belt as an "active" safety device — but in fact the definitions presently favoured in the article are the ones most commonly used by researchers, practitioners, engineers, and regulators in the automobile safety field. Just about any text on the subject (such as this one) will paint the picture for you, though you needn't go that far; viz the "passive restraint" terminology officially applied to airbags and (for a brief time in the U.S.) motorised seat belts, even though these devices' operation is very active in nature. As the article discusses, this is a very difficult bit of terminology to navigate clearly and accurately. Please see here, here, here (PDF), here, here, here, here (PDF), here, here, here, and here.

The reference you have found, on the other hand, is typical of how the terms tend to get simplified for presentation to a public audience assumed not to know or care much about the subject. Certainly the fact that the terminology is used this way ought to be mentioned in the article, even though it directly conflicts with formal usage, and that's why the article presently describes just such a conflict. Perhaps we can come to consensus on text that does a better job of describing the two different usage patterns and where they're generally found. Your VicRoads reference might be included in the article as a reference to illustrate the simplified usage sometimes presented to consumers, though we would need to think very carefully about its veracity; it lists "automatic transmission" as a safety feature, and as far as I am aware there is no reliable scientific basis for that claim. There appears to be no such data based on a power search of the UMTRI library, which is one of North America's (and, indeed, the world's) most comprehensive traffic safety libraries. Remember, there's much more to supporting your assertion than just finding a website that happens to echo the statement you wish to include in an article. The source needs to be reliable. Compare the level of documentation in most of the refs I provided above to the utter lack of such documentation in the ref you provided.

Whether or not we decide to use the VicRoads site, I feel it would be inappropriate to proceed with your idea to replace the present formal definitions, thoroughly and reliably supported, with informal definitions sometimes used to give consumers a quick, sketchy rundown on car safety. —Scheinwerfermann ^T·_C20:34, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Okay. I yield. If anything, I could have seen that you obviously have much more credentials in the field of car technology so you are most probably more suitable to edit such articles. What is interesting is that the definition as I have written is not only present for marketing purposes, but even in many texts written by car manufacturers themselves. Just by the way.

However, there is another thing. The fact is that from the article as it is written I practically could not deduct the main line of division between active and passive as it is now. Then I found this: http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Active_Safety (sorry, another link) and everything become clearer. Interestingly, this article is sourced from wikipedia (an older version, I guess). And it is much better written than as it stands now and deals with the same thing (blurred definitions).

Have fun ... 195.250.209.198 (talk) 22:27, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Wait, wait, don't yield. This is not a battle. Wikipedia is a coöperative project, not a competitive or combative one. You've raised the very valid point that the present language is not adequate to convey the definitions clearly. Let's work on developing better text. I'll start brainstorming on it after dinner; right now I gotta go eat! —Scheinwerfermann ^T·_C23:49, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

It is important not to confuse active/passive restraints with active/passive safety. The definitions on this page are the definitions of active and passive restraints. The definitions of active and passive safety are as indicated on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Safety

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Car_Care/Notes_From_The_Road/Safety_System_Definitons.aspx http://www.audiusa.com/us/brand/en.html, etc. Tanja-Else (talk) 23:55, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

We never used Scheinwerfermann's definition in college (Mechanical Engineering, University of Sao Paulo). Even more, every single text I keep from those days agrees with the definition given by our anonymous contributor. May be we should put it both ways. Aldo L (talk) 07:40, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Both ways: good idea, and good refs you've provided. I've copyedited the section for syntax, grammar, and reference format. What do we think about the present coverage of terminology? —Scheinwerfermann ^T·_C14:34, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Okay, I've gone through, read the entirety of both of your responses, read through the relative wikipedia section under automotive safety, and read ALL of the respective sources (previously five) to the debate of active vs. passive safety. Thusly, since I have been following automotive safety for over a decade and already knew the correct answer, though wanted to verify; I have gone back to the article and corrected it accordingly. My opinion, based on reading everything humanly possible related to the debate and having majored in Mechanical Engineering in pursuit of an automotive safety career?! Scheinwerfermann's wrong. Period. Active safety is hands-down 100% the systems in a vehicle that work to PREVENT or AVOID an accident. Passive safety systems help protect occupants in the event of a crash. Simple as can be. I mean, I did an independent study on automotive safety in high school. High school. The supporting articles that duly didn't even support the statements, of both passive safety being relative to crashworthiness and seat belts being declared as active (also incorrectly sourced as the articles blatantly said the opposite) have been removed. Seatbelts are passive safety. Period. That's why they are part of the supplemental restraint system (SRS), restraining a passenger in the event of a crash. What part of the physical restraint of someone's being results in the avoidance of a crash? None. This argument of active being defined by user input is absurd. Sorry to be so mean but this is just ridiculous. The user that stated that the car companies themselves use the very definition of active vs passive that we are defending is correct; it's not to dumb down concepts for consumers. If anyone would like to debate this further, feel free to email me at [email protected] That's my secondary email so it may take me a while to respond, but this is case closed as far as I'm concerned. AutonomousCars09 (talk) 11:16, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

I understand this article is specifically about automobile safety, however there are some more differences when you get into aviation, and specifically rotary wing crashworthiness. We use the terms passive and active (i.e., passive control and active control) differently when describing safety systems. It does get a bit confusing at times. --THE FOUNDERS INTENT ^PRAISE 18:40, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Solomon curve & crash causes

We have here a long article that will get longer as its gaps are filled in and its scope is expanded. If we're not careful to keep focused on the topic of auto safety, the article will get diluted with material that belongs in Car accident, Road safety, Speed limit, or other articles. At best, this will mean reduplicated effort. At worst, the quality of all affected articles will be degraded. With an eye towards keeping these articles on their related but individual development paths, I have removed a couple of sentences that are better covered in Car accident, and have moved the assertion related to driving with the flow of traffic, together with its Solomon Curve link, to the relevant section of Car accident. —Scheinwerfermann ^T·_C21:53, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Makes sense to me. It seemed to fit with the sentences you removed, but you're right that they all are better covered in Car accident. Thanks.--Ludasaphire (talk) 23:41, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Statistical graph

A graph showing fatality rates in various countries over the last few decades would help explain the data, rather than only a few numbers scattered in tables and prose. -- Beland (talk) 06:34, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

You're right. We've got a supported table like that here; perhaps that table could be placed—reference and all—here in this article, and supplemented and/or expanded with additional sources of info. —Scheinwerfermann ^T·_C18:58, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Added a diagram to illustrate the table - if this is insufficient then put the {{reqdiagram}} link back in again. Egmason (talk) 11:33, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

"Sources" and "External links" sections

There appear to be some good resources in these two sections. Per WP:EL and WP:CS it's better if they're provided as actual references supporting assertions in the article, not just a list at the end of the article. We ought to look through 'em, get rid of those that are superfluous and/or spurious, and incorporate the valuable ones as references to the maximum practicable degree. —Scheinwerfermann ^T·_C15:00, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Tests vs Reality

Is it just me, or do all the safety tests give useless data? "Insurance losses by make and model" gives what insurance companies actually have to pay out for injuries. The safest vehicles here do not match the safest vehicles in crash test ratings - so cars optimized for the ratings may be much more dangerous than those with bad ratings but good real results.

Look at actual medical losses for 2011 Ford Escape Hybrid which has a combined very low test score - "CONCERN: Worst 10% for 2011-12". Now look at real-world insurance losses Ford Escape Hybrid does much better on personal injury than the vast majority of vehicles, the exact opposite of what the safety tests would have you believe.

How many people are being injured or killed due to buying vehicles they researched and thought "safe"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.18.253.116 (talk) 06:37, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

You have a name? Have you checked other sources? --THE FOUNDERS INTENT ^PRAISE 18:25, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Outdated Section

Commercial services also exist to that provide a notification phone number to report unsafe driving such as IsmyKidDrivingSafe.com[69] and CarefulTeenDriver.com.[70]

This section is outdated, as these sites no longer function. 88.148.84.87 (talk) 20:56, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

After marking those as dead links, I realized there are no other links in the sentence, so I have <!-- commented it out -->.

I am referring this issue to WikiProject Transport. --Thnidu (talk) 02:36, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

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Neutrality of History section

The Automobile safety#History section is non-neutral with respect to multiple reliable sources. Currently the Automobile safety#History section is little more than a chronology of the introduction of auto safety features, with little or no narrative or context. The Automobile safety#History section non-neutrally gives the reader the false impression of the spontaneous arrival of safety features, as if delivered by a benevolent auto industry.

Conspicuously, non-neutrally, absent from our project's coverage of the history of auto safety are highly significant actors and events, including:

• National Safety Council
• Ralph Nader
• Center for Auto Safety
• Unsafe at Any Speed
• Chevrolet Corvair
• Ford Pinto
• lawsuits and litigation preceding safety features
• industry resistance and opposition to automobile safety standards
• the shift in emphasis from driver behavior to auto design and the role of design and safety features in the 1960s

Respectfully request collaboration on the neutrality of this section. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 15:07, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

• Object: The list is clearly a list of safety technologies, not a discussion of why those technologies came about. Furthermore, the sources you wish to add are not all of legitimate value in terms of this discussion. The tag should not have been added to the section. Per WP:OSE we should consider how other safety advances type articles have been formated. The Aviation safety article does not mention lawsuits or even the loss of Knute Rockne. Springee (talk) 17:09, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

HughD, please review WP:BRD. You made a bold change but the content you added was not appropriate. The list in question is a list of safety devices or legislation. The Pinto related material you are trying to add is not a device or a regulation. You have not shown how the various Pinto related material lead to improved safety. Please don't add the material again until others support your changes. Springee (talk) 18:45, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

This is a prose article WP:PROSE, not a list article WP:SAL; you may consider assessing community support for a fork such as List of automobile safety devices or List of automobile safety legislation. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 18:51, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

Your argument is irrelevant. The list is one of safety devices and/or regulations. You haven't shown that any of the Pinto material you have added has resulted in improved safety.

I've requested input from other editors. [1] Springee (talk) 18:52, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

Please do not delete because of lack of consensus WP:DRNC. Please do not edit war to remove a NPOV hat until the issue is resolved WP:EW. Deleting relevant content you personally disagree with is tendacious WP:TEND. You have deleted thirteen (13) noteworthy reliable sources without offering an alternative summarization of the sources. How would you summarize the thirteen (13) noteworthy reliable sources? Thank you. Hugh (talk) 19:02, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

Hugh, please cut out the BS. This is not a consensus issue. The material you added was off topic. As you SHOULD know, RS doesn't mater if the material is off topic. As part of your failed ANI filed against me you were told you should back away from the Pinto topic. Springee (talk) 19:06, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

It would be nice, if kinda unlikely, if the hat-adder would add some language describing what he thinks would reflect a balanced look at the question. Anmccaff (talk)

• HughD, please do not add disputed content without discussion here first. Arthur Rubin is correct in noting that you have not adequately supported the link between Nader's book and the later legislation. Furthermore, the book is not a safety feature or legislation. The list is only safety features or regulations. The current auto safety article is happily free of political type content. Please don't open that door, especially without editor input. Springee (talk) 12:01, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

HughD, it really seems like you aren't understanding. The problem with your Nader addition is not that it's not reliably sourced, it's that it is off topic. This article is not about the politics of auto safety, it's an article about safety features and safety regulations. Please stop trying to add politics to the article without buy in from other editors! Please see Wikipedia:Civil_POV_pushing Springee (talk) 16:39, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

• HughD, why did you restore the tag to the article without discussion here? Two editors have objected and you have not justified it's inclusion here. Perhaps you should post a question on the project automobile talk page if you think the article scope is wrong. Anmccaff has already removed it once and I support the action. You have failed to justify its inclusion. Springee (talk) 16:46, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

Nader and Unsafe at Any Speed

Contended addition to the 1960s subsection of the History section of Automobile safety:

On November 30, 1965, the book Unsafe at Any Speed: The Designed-In Dangers of the American Automobile, by 32-year-old lawyer Ralph Nader, was published, and was a best seller in nonfiction by spring 1966. In February 1966, U.S. Senator Abraham A. Ribicoff asked Nader to testify before a Senate subcommittee on automotive safety. According to The New York Times, the Encyclopædia Britannica, Speaker of the United States House of Representatives at the time John William McCormack, the United States Department of Transportation, and others, Nader and Unsafe at Any Speed helped the passage of the 1966 National Traffic and Motor Vehicle Safety Act, the first significant automobile safety legislation in the U.S.

Sources

• Wyden, Peter (1987). The Unknown Iacocca. William Morrow and Company. ISBN 068806616X. Nader, another poor boy, rose to national hero status on the critic's side of America's car wars. His 1965 best-seller Unsafe at Any Speed focused on the appalling accident record of Chevrolet's Corvair and was largely responsible for the congressional passage, in 1966, of the nation's first reasonably stringent auto safety law.
• Nader, Ralph (1965). Unsafe at Any Speed: The Designed-In Dangers of the American Automobile. Grossman Publishers.
• Jensen, Christopher (November 26, 2015). "50 Years Ago, 'Unsafe at Any Speed' Shook the Auto World". The New York Times. Retrieved April 27, 2016. Few drivers could imagine owning a car these days that did not come with airbags, antilock brakes and seatbelts. But 50 years ago motorists went without such basic safety features. That was before a young lawyer named Ralph Nader came along with a book, "Unsafe at Any Speed," that would change the auto industry. It accused automakers of failing to make cars as safe as possible. Less than a year after the book was published, a balky Congress created the federal safety agency that became the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration — an agency whose stated mission is to save lives, prevent injuries and reduce crashes...In September 1966 — about 10 months after the book was published — President Lyndon B. Johnson signed the National Traffic and Motor Vehicle Safety Act, requiring the adoption of new or upgraded vehicle safety standards, and creating an agency to enforce them and supervise safety recalls.
• "Unsafe at Any Speed hits bookstores". History (U.S. TV channel). A & E. Retrieved April 27, 2016. On this day in 1965, 32-year-old lawyer Ralph Nader publishes the muckraking book Unsafe at Any Speed: The Designed-In Dangers of the American Automobile. The book became a best-seller right away. It also prompted the passage of the National Traffic and Motor Vehicle Safety Act of 1966, seat-belt laws in 49 states (all but New Hampshire) and a number of other road-safety initiatives.
• Brumagen, Regan. "Unsafe at Any Speed, Work by Nader". Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved April 27, 2016. Unsafe at Any Speed, investigative report on U.S. automobile safety published in 1965 by consumer advocate Ralph Nader, who was then a 31-year-old attorney. Unsafe at Any Speed: The Designed-in Dangers of the American Automobile excoriated the American automotive industry, based in Detroit, for its prioritization of style and design over consumer safety. Nader's book eventually became a best seller and helped spur the passage of the National Traffic and Motor Vehicle Safety Act in 1966, the country's first significant automobile safety legislation.
• "Congress Acts on Traffic and Auto Safety". CQ Almanac. Congressional Quarterly. 1966. pp. 266–268. Retrieved April 27, 2016. Breaking into the traffic safety inertia was the publication in November 1965 of "Unsafe At Any Speed," a book written by Ralph Nader a 32-year-old Connecticut lawyer who had served as a consultant for the Department of Labor and a Senate subcommittee in 1964–65. House Speaker John W. McCormack (D Mass.) Oct. 21, 1966, credited the final outcome of the traffic safety bill to the "crusading spirit of one individual who believed he could do something…Ralph Nader."
• Weingroff, Richard F. (2015). "Epilogue: The Changing Federal Role". President Dwight D. Eisenhower and the Federal Role in Highway Safety. United States Department of Transportation. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |agency= ignored (help)
• Glass, Andrew (February 10, 1966). "Ralph Nader testifies before Congress on auto safety". Politico. Retrieved April 27, 2016. Nader's advocacy of auto-safety issues, helped lead to the passage of the 1966 National Traffic and Motor Vehicle Safety Act. This legislation sought to reduce the rising number of injuries and deaths from road accidents by establishing federal safety standards for American-made vehicles, including safety belts.
• Lee, Matthew T. (Winter 1998). "The Ford Pinto Case and the Development of Auto Safety Regulations, 1893—1978". Business and Economic History. 27 (2). Cambridge University Press: 390–401. Auto safety legislation was also partly the result of the publication of Ralph Nader's book, Unsafe at Any Speed, which acted as a catalyst for turning the auto safety movement into a legislative force.
• Lee, Matthew T; Ermann, M. David (February 1999). "Pinto "Madness" as a Flawed Landmark Narrative: An Organizational and Network Analysis". Social Problems. 46 (1): 30–47. The legislative branch had focused on driver behavior and road design until Ralph Nader (1965) and others convinced Congress that many of the 50,000 annual auto deaths resulted from unsafe car designs. The National Traffic and Motor Vehicle Safety Act in 1966, one year before Ford began designing the Pinto, produced America's first significant federal auto regulation. {{cite journal}}: |access-date= requires |url= (help)
• "Achievements in Public Health, 1900-1999 Motor-Vehicle Safety: A 20th Century Public Health Achievement". Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report. 48 (18). Centers for Disease Control and Prevention: 369–374. May 14, 1999. Retrieved April 27, 2016. Systematic motor-vehicle safety efforts began during the 1960s...In 1966, passage of the Highway Safety Act and the National Traffic and Motor Vehicle Safety Act authorized the federal government to set and regulate standards for motor vehicles and highways, a mechanism necessary for effective prevention.
• Hendrickson, Kimberly A. (2003). "National Traffic and Motor Vehicle Safety Act". In Kutler, Stanley I. (ed.). Dictionary of American History. Vol. 5 (3rd ed.). Charles Scribner's Sons. pp. 561–562. Signed into law by President Lyndon Johnson on 9 September 1966, this act created the first mandatory federal safety standards for motor vehicles.

Discussion

Contended content is highly noteworthy and relevant. Very, very obviously Ralph Nader is a very noteworthy actor, and the publication of Unsafe at Any Speed and Nader's congressional testimony, very noteworthy events, in the history of automobile safety. The exclusion of this content is a very severe violation of our project's neutrality pillar. The section non-neutrally gives the reader the false impression of the spontaneous arrival of safety features as if delivered by a benevolent auto industry. This is a prose article, not a list article. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 17:00, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

Please indicate your support for inclusion. Also, please don't significantly modify your statements after others have replied. It can be seen as TEND because it may make it appear as though the statements of others were in reply to the modified text, not the original text. Springee (talk) 18:09, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

Oppose: This isn't a question of RSed material. I would agree that Nader's inflammatory book did a lot to bring safety to the minds of the consumer. However, the list in question, as has been pointed out already, is a list of safety features and regulations. For example, the first car with shoulder belts, the first car with ABS, the first mandate for seatbelts in cars etc. The political events (and Nader's book is a political event in this context) which resulted in these changes are not part of the list in question. It appears that the editors of this article have largely avoided the political aspects of the topic and focused on the technologies and regulations. I see no reason to change that now. Thus a strong objection to inserting the material into the list and a cautionary objection for inclusion in general. Generalized inclusion should only occur after group input as to how such information/events should be integrated into the article. Springee (talk) 17:28, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

Oppose This is a simple list of safety features and when they became common, and it is not restricted to the United States. Anmccaff (talk) 18:26, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

Anmccaff, please propose language for review by the community, for addition to the lede, clarifying what you feel is the community consensus, such as that the article is a list and not prose, and explicitly excluding context you feel is inappropriate. List articles are required to have an explicit statement of inclusion/exclusion critieria WP:LSC. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 18:57, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

You seem to be confusing a list within an article and a list article. I would suggest you raise the issue at Project Automobiles. Springee (talk) 19:07, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

Anmccaff, is the U.S. excluded from the History section of our project's article Automobile safety? Hugh (talk) 20:12, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

Concentrating on it as you have is unequivocally WP:UNDUE. Anmccaff (talk) 20:33, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

Anmccaff, is it your contention that the History section of our project's article Automobile safety is not about the history of automobile safety? Hugh (talk) 20:12, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

No, my contention is that it is about the history of automobile safety, not the hero-worship of Nader, as you seem to see it. Anmccaff (talk) 20:33, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

Anmccaff, the consensus of numerous noteworthy reliable sources, including The New York Times, the Encyclopædia Britannica, the Speaker of the United States House of Representatives at the time John William McCormack, the United States Department of Transportation, and others, is that Ralph Nader was noteworthy in the History of Automobile safety WP:DUE. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 20:40, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

The consensus is George Westinghouse's air brakes were a breakthrough in rail safety. But that doesn't mean it should be in this article. The material you are trying to add is related to this topic but NOT part of this topic. Your NPOV tag is unwarranted. If you don't like the scope of this topic I would, again, suggest you use the proper process such as taking your suggestion for a scope change the automobile project talk page. Springee (talk) 20:52, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

• HughD, the material you have been trying to add has been opposed. Why are you now adding it against consensus and without discussion? Please stop edit warring. Pinging other recent editors to review the material you have added here [2]. @Anmccaff:, @Arthur Rubin:, @Dimadick:, @NickCT: Springee (talk) 21:37, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

Should not material on the impact of a single book such as Unsafe at Any Speed be more properly covered in the article on the book? It seems a bit excessive devoting an entire history section to it. Dimadick (talk) 21:44, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

Dimadick, coverage in Wikipedia is proportional to coverage in reliable sources. The contended content summarizes vast noteworthy reliable sources regarding the historic impact of a noteworthy actor and a noteworthy book in the History of Automobile safety. Is it your position that Ralph Nader and Unsafe at Any Speed not be mentioned in the History section of our project's article Automobile safety? Thank you. Hugh (talk) 22:01, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

I don't seriously minde the mention of a book, when it is relevant to the subject. But an entire historical section devoted to just that may be excessive. And the sources which you summarize seem to be missing from the article on the book, which has a shorter section on "Industry response".Dimadick (talk) 22:06, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

Dimadick, your contributions to improving our project's coverage of the history of automobile safety are welcome. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 22:22, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

This is an article on auto safety, not auto safety legislation in the US. Even if we neglect the "second world"; this leaves out Canada, Argentina, Sweden Britain, France, Italy, Germany, Austria, India, Japan, the Philipines (yep.), and Australia, just off the top of my head, who were all building cars in some numbers in the '60s. Add in the Commies, we get More-of-Germany, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, the USSR, Ukraine, China. The World is a very big place, and much of it could care less about Ralph Nader or GM. Anmccaff (talk) 22:30, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

The US is the industry leader. The article of late has been grossly non-neutral in omitting the critical roles of industry resistance and of legislation in its coverage of the history of automobile safety. Coverage in Wikipedia is proportional to coverage in reliable sources, not proportional to surface area. Your contributions to improving our project's coverage of international automobile safety is welcome. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 22:49, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

The US has been an industry leader, and probably could be seen as a waning one in the 1960s, but the rest of the world built a car or two then, and bought a few as well. It's also useful to compare this against a list of deaths by vehicle miles, which suggests, strongly, that legislation had almost nothing to do with the declining fatality trend.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:USA_annual_VMT_vs_deaths_per_VMT.png

The current rate of decline in fatalities tracks to '55. There was a sight increase from '60 to '65, but it had already fallen off before he legislation you claim was crucial. Anmccaff (talk) 23:31, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

Ignoring the issues with the actual text that was added (overcite, peacock) the addition of this material opens up a number of other issues. Why does "history" start in 1965 when many of the critical safety innovations occurred before that? Why focus so much attention on the book vs the organization that it helped to launch? Do we have room in the article to expand every topic to include the back story of the technology or regulation? Do we want to introduce that level of politics into what was previously an uncontroversial article? An article about auto safety could reasonably include the political backdrop behind various regulations etc. However, if we are going to expand the article to include such information it needs to be done with a plan derived from consensus. If Hugh feels this information is a must have in the article I would suggest proposing what changes we should make. We did Bold, Revert and now it's time for Discuss. Springee (talk) 01:28, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

HughD, please review WP:BRD so we can build a consensus before you add new material to an section of the article that is currently being questioned by several editors. In addition to the above concerns with the entire section, your edit here is not adequately sourced[3]. Your addition makes a specific claim, "was the first mandatory federal safety standards for motor vehicles." but two of your three sources suggest that isn't true. The only source that does support your edit is the Encyclopædia Britannica. I don't think it is considered a very reliable source given that it contradicts the other two sources. Springee (talk) 15:36, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

HughD, the wholesale movement of content and changing of section headings without discussion is not conducive to consensus building. Please explain your plan before continuing. Springee (talk) 17:46, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

Propose roll back In addition to questionable content edits, the historical list is getting chopped up with out talk page discussion and despite requests for discussion. I propose rolling the article back to this edit [4]. Changes to the nature and content of the "history" section should be done with group input given the group attention. Pinging other editors for input. @Anmccaff:, @Arthur Rubin:, @Dimadick:, @NickCT: Springee (talk) 18:14, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

• Support Roll Back - Roll it back.... NickCT (talk) 18:39, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

Support. This is looking like a WP:COATRACK for Ralph Nader fans. Anmccaff (talk) 18:40, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

Some of the contents in the "history" section seem to have no sources at all and should probably also be checked for accuracy. For example: "Effective on new passenger cars sold in the United States after January 1, 1964. front outboard lap belts were required." and "Effective in 1966, US-market passenger cars were required to be equipped with padded instrument panels, front and rear outboard lap belts, and white reverse (backup) lamps."

None of this is supported, changes in law or industry standards are not explained and the geographic scope is still very limited. HughD might be a bit overenthusiastic about explaining Ralph Nader's impact on the industry, but the article does need changes and sourcing. Dimadick (talk) 18:48, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

No debate that it needs other improvement. US navel-gazing, sources are required, and some fine distinctions needed between big-3 adoption and legal requirement, Anmccaff (talk) 19:01, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for your comments. We agree, this article has many problems, including sourcing. We agree, more international focus is desirable. We agree, better distinction between manufacturer benevolence and regulatory compliance is desirable. Already, in response to editor comments, the simple chronological list of the introduction of safety features has been clarified. A prose history section has been started. The recent interest is exciting. Your contribution to improving our project's coverage of the history of automotive safety is welcome. Thank you again. Hugh (talk) 19:19, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

Your version of events isn't exactly true. The "chronological list" was not limited to safety features and no one suggested that should be the scope of the list other than you and only after the fact. Your productive interaction with other editors to discuss changes before they are made in the article space is welcome. Springee (talk) 19:29, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

Editor consensus that the list is a list:

11 April 2016 Springee: "The list is clearly a list of safety technologies, not a discussion of why those technologies came about."

18:45 25 April 2016 Springee: "The list in question is a list of safety devices or legislation."

18:52 25 April 2016 Springee: "The list is one of safety devices and/or regulations."

12:01 27 April 2016 Springee: "The list is only safety features or regulations."

17:28 27 April 2016 Springee: "However, the list in question, as has been pointed out already, is a list of safety features and regulations. For example, the first car with shoulder belts, the first car with ABS, the first mandate for seatbelts in cars etc."

27 April 2016 Anmccaff: "This is a simple list of safety features and when they became common..."

Thank you. Hugh (talk) 20:05, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

HughD, you seem to only see what you want to see. Misrepresenting my statements is WP:TEND. You claimed that I supported making the list only the introduction of safety features yet even in your quotes it's clear I acknowledged regulations. I didn't say "regulations which dictated a specific safety feature. Springee (talk) 20:12, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

Context stripped. In many, perhaps most cases, you have to see what was being replied to to get the actual full meaning. Anmccaff (talk) 20:12, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

No, "we" do not agree on all these points. Speak for yourself, please, HughD, rather than summarizing other's thoughts which you may not have fully digested. Anmccaff (talk) 20:01, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

Agreed that the article needs sourcing. I believe the proposed rollback retains many of the recent citation needed tags. The article certainly could use cleanup beyond just improved sourcing. However, I don't think the best way to do that is with some talk page discussion first. Also, I think it would be best to keep the level of politics low to zero here. The Nader centric edit seems to akin to hero worship. It also opens the article up to the sort of arguments we have seen already. I suggest keeping it to a more factual presentation. If the passage of a particular law was controversial or political that can be discussed in a specific topic article. Thus Nader's impact, as it is being added to this article, could be described here[5]. Springee (talk) 19:15, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

Rollback completed. I retained the 16:00, 29 April 2016‎ and later edits. This is not an endorsement but those edits were outside of the contested area. Springee (talk) 01:11, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

Please see WP:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#History_of_automobile_safety_and_Ralph_Nader. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 18:17, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

Recent CN tags

HughD, rather than just tagging older article content, why not try to find supporting links? If your intent is to HELP the article finding supporting information is far more productive than just tagging every non-controversial fact. This comes across revenge tagging. Springee (talk) 21:00, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

History of automobile safety off-topic in article "Automobile safety"?

A history section is appropriate in any article whose subject is not history itself but includes history. More specifically, this subject is of interest to our WP:WikiProject Medicine, which includes some style guidelines WP:MEDMOS, which recommends a "History" section. Twice in the last two days a section tag "off-topic" has been added to the Automobile_safety#History section. What is the basis in policy or guideline for tagging the history section of this article as off-topic? Thank you. Hugh (talk) 20:20, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

To begin with, your Coatracking edits. That looks to everyone else like a header paragraph to a list of short summarized points regarding technology, public acceptance, or law. Short. Focused. Universal. We see instead something that is verbose, tendentious, and parochial. Anmccaff (talk) 20:26, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

What coat-racking edits? Anyway please under what policy or guideline is an "off-topic" section tag an appropriate response to perceived coat-racking? Hugh (talk) 21:55, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

Anmccaff, kindly elaborate on how you feel WP:COATRACK applies here. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 23:14, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Look at the section. Look at the sweep of it: nearly 300 years. Look at areas covered: nearly everywhere but Antarctica. Look at the fact that a fifth of it is dedicated to burning incense at the Shrine of St Ralph the Nadered. Anmccaff (talk) 23:57, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for your comment, it helps focus. Coverage in Wikipedia is proportional to coverage in reliable sources, not to decades. In any case the 1960s were a significant decade. We will look forward to your contributions of new sources and improved coverage of other decades. This article is very poorly sourced, but even so it seems odd to make one of the most rigorously sourced paragraphs a target for an undue weight exclusion campaign. Please replace the section hat with an in-text relevance template after our article's contended paragraph. Thanks again. Hugh (talk) 01:08, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

Hugh, please discuss your proposed changes with the group BEFORE making them. We are past the time to be WP:BOLD. Please don't be [WP:RECKLESS]. Springee (talk) 20:28, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

Whether or not a "history" section would be off topic, a Nader section is off-topic. The "off-topic" tag refers to content, not to headers. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 05:13, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

I see Hugh moved some paragraphs from other sections into the History section, after the tag was added. Those paragraphs are on-topic in "History", but IMO, fit better where they were before. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 14:03, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Arthur Rubin, Ralph Nader is off-topic in the History section of our project's article on Automobile safety? Really? What is the due weight of Ralph Nader and and his book Unsafe at Any Speed and his congressional testimony in the History section of our project's article on Automobile safety? Respectfully, a reminder, coverage in Wikipedia is proportional to coverage in reliable sources; beyond proportionality, we have vast noteworthy reliable sources specifically stating a key role for Ralph Nader and and his book Unsafe at Any Speed and his congressional testimony in the passage of the first major automobile safety law. Please, how would you summarize the sources listed in the previous thread above? Thank you. Hugh (talk) 15:02, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Yes, off topic because this article is avoiding the politics associated with various safety features, tests, laws and regulations. Springee (talk) 15:30, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Section blanking of "History" section

Please do not section blank without consensus. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 01:12, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

Hugh, there was no "section blanking". The only material removed was the disputed Nader related material. The rollback was discussed above and supported. The rollback came about because a series of BOLD changes were rejected by consensus. Springee (talk) 01:14, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

Which "Nader material", I'd add, might even be a proper part of this, on a very, very, very reduced scale. A sentence or two, a reference or two. Not War and Peace" followed by a dozen footnotes. Anmccaff (talk) 01:22, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

By your participation in our community you agree to abide by our project's policies which include "don't delete salvageable text" WP:DR. Kindly self-revert your deletion. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 19:35, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

You are assuming that your text is salvageable, I'd suggest it is so far gone that any minor reintroduction would be more straightforward from scratch. Your constant ad hominem poisoning of the well, asserting without evidence that others are breaking "our project's policies," comes across as smarmy passive aggression, at least to my ears. Anmccaff (talk) 00:16, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

Anmccaff, your recent deletion removed nine (9) noteworthy relevant reliable sources from our article; please suggest a summarization of those sources. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 00:59, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

No, Hugh. My recent rollback, discussed at length with considerable consensus, removed material which was widely seen as tendentious, misdirected, and overcited. Anmccaff (talk) 01:13, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

HughD, please do not revert changes against consensus. It is clear from the replies of NickCT, Anmccaff and Arthur Rubin (as well as myself) that both your insertion of the Nader material and your splitting of the list into two sections has not been supported by other editors. Dimadick supported your concern with the lack of citation tags. That information has been retained. Now please propose, discuss and only make changes AFTER group buy in. Springee (talk) 01:24, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

Paul Ingrassia

http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2012/05/09/how-the-corvairs-rise-and-fall-changed-america-forever/

This piece summarizes some of the disagreements with Nadrocentric model of the universe. HughD, if you can show signs that you understand some of the concepts there, it will make for some common ground and actual collaboration. By this I do not mean that I'd expect you to agree, but only to acknowledge there's an entire part of the population, often far more expert than Ralph's Krew on automotive subjects, who disagree fundamentally about many of the ideas you take as given. Anmccaff (talk) 01:46, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

The due weight of Ralph Nader, his book Unsafe at Any Speed, and his congressional testimony in the history of automobile is not none. Your deletion of relevant content and multiple noteworthy reliable sources is unjustified. Kindly self-revert. We are asked not to edit article space to attempt to teach an editor a lesson. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 17:09, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

You are confusing several issues. The reversion in question was proposed and supported with consensus. Rather than respecting consensus you engaged in edit warring by reverting the consensus. You then created a disingenuous "section blanking" argument for your reversion. The issue is not that Nader's book can not be in this article. The first issue was how you were WP:PUSHing some material into a section where it didn't fit. The second issue was that, despite being asked to discuss your planned changes, you proceeded to restructure the article in a way that the group did not support, hence a roll back. Anmccaff's actions were entirely appropriate in this case. Springee (talk) 18:07, 1 May 2016 (UTC)