Talk:American Freedom Party: Difference between revisions
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White supremacy is a term used by political-activist groups that masquerade as scholars like the SPLC and the ADL. Both the ADL and the SPLC are not unbiased organizations, as we rarely hear from either group on the topic of Israeli nationalism. They do not claim Israel to be a supremacist state despite the fact that it grants automatic citizenship for Jews, and is currently in the process of deporting non-Jews. Each of these groups has a direct conflict of interests with these white nationalist groups, so their opinions cannot be taken as unbiased and authoratative. |
White supremacy is a term used by political-activist groups that masquerade as scholars like the SPLC and the ADL. Both the ADL and the SPLC are not unbiased organizations, as we rarely hear from either group on the topic of Israeli nationalism. They do not claim Israel to be a supremacist state despite the fact that it grants automatic citizenship for Jews, and is currently in the process of deporting non-Jews. Each of these groups has a direct conflict of interests with these white nationalist groups, so their opinions cannot be taken as unbiased and authoratative. |
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[[User:Malv|Malv]] ([[User talk:Malv|talk]]) 22:15, 18 June 2012 (UTC) |
[[User:Malv|Malv]] ([[User talk:Malv|talk]]) 22:15, 18 June 2012 (UTC) |
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:Why the sources say what they do is not up for discussion; what they say is what we must say, according to [[WP:SOURCE|our policies on verifiability]]. The issue has been talked to death on this page already, and going through the archives (and the above threaded discussions) should help clear up your concerns. [[User:Evanh2008|Evanh2008]] <sup>([[User talk:Evanh2008|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Evanh2008|contribs]])</sup> 22:42, 18 June 2012 (UTC) |
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Labelling
On what basis is A3P a white supremacist group? The ADL and SPLC are not reliable sources (they are self declared to be biased in the interests of Jews), and the other sources given are all echoing the SPLC's and ADL's biased opinions of the party.
Here is a list of some media pieces which do not give that erroneous label to A3P:
- http://www.boston.com/news/local/new_hampshire/articles/2010/08/11/nh_democrat_blasted_for_anti_palin_remark/
- http://theopenglobe.org/wiki/OpenGlobe_interviews_Merlin_Miller,_American_Third_Position_Party_presidential_candidate
- http://www.wvpubcast.org/newsarticle.aspx?id=22014
- http://www.dailymail.com/News/201110053406
All of these articles from respected sources call the American Third Position "White Nationalists" and or "in the interests of White People". It is much more fair to characterize them as such than with the "white supremacist" label that is currently listed.
Slaja (talk) 02:05, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- I have corrected it. This page was clearly under the influence of POV editors. Slaja (talk) 02:06, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- Um, even if your statement about Jews was correct (which it isn't for the SPLC), what's wrong with Jews? We have multiple independent sources that it is white supremacist - I know it describes itself as white nationalist as a couple of your links above show, but we don't accept self-descriptions at face value for what should be obvious reasons. White supremacists groups, at least in the US, have a tendency to prefer not be be recognised as such and prefer to be called white nationalist which I guess seems to them more moderate and more likely to attract support than white supremacist. Dougweller (talk) 08:18, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- Dougweller, incorrect. White Supremacism, White Nationalism, and White Separatism are all different ideologies within the White activism umbrella. Some 'pro-Whites' are strictly one, two, three, or a combination of those. White Nationalism is the most popular form, and (even under wiki's White Nationalist page), supremacism is a mere subgroup in which a small minority adhere to. To make a blanket statement such as "all White Nationalists are supremacists" is false and an agenda-ridden lie. Are all liberals Communist? Or are all Communists liberal? Not necessarily, and such is my point. Also, side note, using ideologically-opposed sources, such as the ADL, SPLC, etc, (who also make profit out of identifying 'hate groups' by scaring donations out of people) is why nobody takes wikipedia seriously due to the heavy and blatant bias. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.198.104.107 (talk) 14:11, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- And where is your proof that these groups labelling them white supremacist are not politically biased? If the A3P does not claim to be a white supremacist group, nor advocates the dominance of whites over non-whites. How can you label such a group a white supremacist group? Just because some "scholarly" schmuck says so? -AM — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.180.56.86 (talk) 22:02, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
- Um, even if your statement about Jews was correct (which it isn't for the SPLC), what's wrong with Jews? We have multiple independent sources that it is white supremacist - I know it describes itself as white nationalist as a couple of your links above show, but we don't accept self-descriptions at face value for what should be obvious reasons. White supremacists groups, at least in the US, have a tendency to prefer not be be recognised as such and prefer to be called white nationalist which I guess seems to them more moderate and more likely to attract support than white supremacist. Dougweller (talk) 08:18, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- The comparison with liberalism and communism is not apt. White nationalism and white separatism are (politically correct, ironically) euphemisms for white supremacism. That the party is white supremacist is well sourced, and Slaja, I've changed it again. Nolan135 (talk) 00:03, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
- They are a euphemism to you and to certain politically motivated groups. What gives them the authority to decide what is supremacism and what is nationalism? There is a conflict of interests and they are not an unbiased authoratative opinion. And frankly, I don't see why these groups are allowed to decide what the A3P defines themselves as, as the A3P website does not mention "supremacism" anywhere on their webpage. Lastly, "white supremacism" is a pejorative and poorly-defined subjective word. If you want you can add a criticism section and cite what other groups consider the A3P to represent. Malv (talk) 22:31, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
- The comparison with liberalism and communism is not apt. White nationalism and white separatism are (politically correct, ironically) euphemisms for white supremacism. That the party is white supremacist is well sourced, and Slaja, I've changed it again. Nolan135 (talk) 00:03, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
- I've decided I'm going to do was was resolved to do on the golden dawn page. If anybody messes with my edits again I'm taking this to arbitration. Slaja (talk) 15:37, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
The American Third Position Party (A3P) is a third positionist American political party. The SPLC and ADL and some media sources have described it as white supremacist[1][2][3][4], although the party rejects that label and considers itself white nationalist[5], which some media sources have described it as.[6][7] It was founded in 2010 partially to channel the right-wing populist resentment engendered by the financial crisis of 2007–2010 and the policies of the Obama administration[8] and defines its principal mission as representing the political interests of white Americans.[9] The party takes a strong stand against immigration[10] and globalization,[11] and strongly supports an anti-interventionist foreign policy.[12] Although the party does not support labor unions, they do strongly support the labor rights of the American working class on a platform of placing American workers first over illegal immigrant workers and banning of overseas corporate relocation of American industry and technology.[13]
The party chairman is Los Angeles attorney William Daniel Johnson. Long Beach State University professor of psychology Kevin B. MacDonald has been named the party Director, and is also a principal contributor to The Occidental Quarterly.[14][15]
- Slaja (talk) 15:49, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
The American Third Position Party (A3P) is a third positionist American political party. The SPLC and ADL and some media sources have described it as white supremacist,[16][17][18][19] although the party rejects that label and considers itself white nationalist,[20] which some media sources have described it as.[21][22] It was founded in 2010 partially to channel the right-wing populist resentment engendered by the financial crisis of 2007–2010 and the policies of the Obama administration[8] and defines its principal mission as representing the political interests of white Americans.[23] The party takes a strong stand against immigration[24] and globalization,[25] and strongly supports an anti-interventionist foreign policy.[26] Although the party does not support labor unions, they do strongly support the labor rights of the American working class on a platform of placing American workers first over illegal immigrant workers and banning of overseas corporate relocation of American industry and technology.[27]
The party chairman is Los Angeles attorney William Daniel Johnson. Long Beach State University professor of psychology Kevin B. MacDonald has been named one of the eight party Directors, and is also a principal contributor to The Occidental Quarterly.[28][29]
-Slaja (talk) 16:00, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
The user Dougweller (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Dougweller) incorrectly edited the introduction. You can't change back my legitimate edits, which are factual and follow the guidelines perfectly. This format of handling the labels question is exactly what was resolved to do on the Golden Dawn page. Do not alter it again. Slaja (talk) 19:32, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
inappropriate intro material
It's not the right place to discuss Kevin MacDonald's theories. Removed. Slaja (talk) 02:08, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- It's obvious that the political ideas of the party's director are relevant, they should be in the article. Dougweller (talk) 07:55, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
- They shouldn't be in the introduction. 70.29.109.91 (talk) 15:34, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
- If you want to know more about what is appropriate for the lead section see here, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Lead_section. It is not the right place to discuss his theories, end of story. Slaja (talk) 15:52, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
- According to the A3P website Kevin Macdonald is only one of multiple "directors". If you want to include his theories make a section or subsection in which you discuss all of them and all of their relevant ideas. You can't cherry pick here. Slaja (talk) 15:56, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
- I've started a new section on leadership, moving the current material out of the lead and adding back the MacDonald information. As I did that, I realised that the fact that he's published his ideas and even that he has those ideas wasn't enough to make them significant for the article - that would require showing that they'd been discussed by third party reliable sources, so I copied over relevant material from MacDonald's article. That's not cherry-picking because it has received a lot of attention. If other directors' ideas look significant for the same reasons, then they can be added, but not just a list of directors' ideas. Dougweller (talk) 16:26, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
- I agree that it is suitable material for the article, my issue was that it should not be in the lead. Slaja (talk) 19:28, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
2009 vs 2010
Um, how can a party which according to the infobox "Founded: January 5, 2010[1]" and the article "was founded in 2010" have "In November 2009 the American Third Position Party filed papers"? Is this article confusing when they were official formed as a recognised political party with the founding date? Nil Einne (talk) 17:20, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
- It's confusing the launch date with the fact it existed in some form in 2009. Its website existed in a test form in late 2009 (and seems to have vanished right now). Dougweller (talk) 18:58, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
I'm never giving up
You can inject your POV all you want hordes, now that I see what a corrupt entity wikipedia really is I'm in this until the end. I'm here to follow the rules and uphold objectivity. Anybody who wants to go against that can go away. Slaja (talk) 22:32, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
- (Changed comment header to elininate shouting) Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:01, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
White Supremacy is a pejerotive
"White supremacy" is a pejeroative term for specifically white nationalist movements that do not refer to themselves as such. There is no clear definition widely accepted definition of what "white supremacy" is. Groups that hold similar nationalist views for other races are rarely referred to as supremacist groups.
White supremacy is a term used by political-activist groups that masquerade as scholars like the SPLC and the ADL. Both the ADL and the SPLC are not unbiased organizations, as we rarely hear from either group on the topic of Israeli nationalism. They do not claim Israel to be a supremacist state despite the fact that it grants automatic citizenship for Jews, and is currently in the process of deporting non-Jews. Each of these groups has a direct conflict of interests with these white nationalist groups, so their opinions cannot be taken as unbiased and authoratative. Malv (talk) 22:15, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
- Why the sources say what they do is not up for discussion; what they say is what we must say, according to our policies on verifiability. The issue has been talked to death on this page already, and going through the archives (and the above threaded discussions) should help clear up your concerns. Evanh2008 (talk|contribs) 22:42, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
- ^ "Ron Paul campaign denies white supremacist ties alleged by Anonymous". Yahoo! News. 2012-02-03. Retrieved 2012-02-18.
- ^ Larry Keller. "New White Supremacist Party has Mass Electoral Ambitions". Southern Poverty Law Center. Retrieved 2012-02-03.
- ^ Alison Knezevich (2011-06-15). "Labor changing mind on Tomblin?". The Charleston Gazette.
- ^ Sanya Khetani (2012-02-01). "Anonymous Has Revealed The British National Party's Links To An American White Supremacist Group". Business Insider. Retrieved 2012-02-18.
- ^ http://american3rdposition.com/?page_id=195
- ^ http://theopenglobe.org/wiki/OpenGlobe_interviews_Merlin_Miller,_American_Third_Position_Party_presidential_candidate
- ^ http://www.dailymail.com/News/201110053406
- ^ a b Southern Poverty Law Center (Spring 2010). "Prof Has New Job Running Racist Political Party: Academic Anti-Semitism". Retrieved 2010-04-28.
{{cite journal}}
: Cite journal requires|journal=
(help) - ^ American Third Position Party, "Mission Statement," (retrieved on January 13th, 2010).
- ^ Immigration: American Third Position. Retrieved January 26, 2010.
- ^ Globalization: American Third Position. Retrieved January 26, 2010.
- ^ Foreign Affairs: American Third Position. Retrieved January 26, 2010.
- ^ American Third Position Party, "American Workers First"
- ^ Long Beach Press-Telegram, "Controversial CSULB professor MacDonald is director of new political party," by Kevin Butler (January 5th, 2010 - retrieved on January 13th, 2010).
- ^ Orange County Weekly, "Long Beach State Professor Kevin MacDonald Helps Mainstream a New White Supremacist Political Party," by Gustavo Arellano (January 21st, 2010 - retrieved on March 13th, 2010).
- ^ "Ron Paul campaign denies white supremacist ties alleged by Anonymous". Yahoo! News. 2012-02-03. Retrieved 2012-02-18.
- ^ Larry Keller. "New White Supremacist Party has Mass Electoral Ambitions". Southern Poverty Law Center. Retrieved 2012-02-03.
- ^ Alison Knezevich (2011-06-15). "Labor changing mind on Tomblin?". The Charleston Gazette.
- ^ Sanya Khetani (2012-02-01). "Anonymous Has Revealed The British National Party's Links To An American White Supremacist Group". Business Insider. Retrieved 2012-02-18.
- ^ http://american3rdposition.com/?page_id=195
- ^ http://theopenglobe.org/wiki/OpenGlobe_interviews_Merlin_Miller,_American_Third_Position_Party_presidential_candidate
- ^ http://www.dailymail.com/News/201110053406
- ^ American Third Position Party, "Mission Statement," (retrieved on January 13th, 2010).
- ^ Immigration: American Third Position. Retrieved January 26, 2010.
- ^ Globalization: American Third Position. Retrieved January 26, 2010.
- ^ Foreign Affairs: American Third Position. Retrieved January 26, 2010.
- ^ American Third Position Party, "American Workers First"
- ^ Long Beach Press-Telegram, "Controversial CSULB professor MacDonald is director of new political party," by Kevin Butler (January 5th, 2010 - retrieved on January 13th, 2010).
- ^ Orange County Weekly, "Long Beach State Professor Kevin MacDonald Helps Mainstream a New White Supremacist Political Party," by Gustavo Arellano (January 21st, 2010 - retrieved on March 13th, 2010).