Talk:Nair

Ethnicity of Nairs

Any Lead about the Ethnicity of Nairs?They,along with Syrian Christians and Some Mappila Muslims in calicut region does not looks like Dravidians.I've found a link where a DNA Test Proved Nairs have Middle Eastern Ancestory Found ,Especially in Central and Northern Travancore.For eg: A Nair from Kottayam looks much fairer and large built than from Thrissur District(Ottapalam,,,etc).Is Nair ,a Term Collectively to Cover Different Races in kerala? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.93.33.48 (talk) 22:48, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Nairs were originally of Indo-Scythian ancestry who migrated to Kerala around 7th Century AD. Once in Kerala, their genepool got mixed with Aryan and Dravidian elements. For more information, you can refer the paper "Scythian origin for the Nayars" -Malabar Quarterly Review Vol.1 Number 2 1902. Also in physical anthropological studies the Nair is taller than both the Tamil Brahmin and the native Nambuthiri of Kerala. 122.177.188.80 (talk) 01:23, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

The Malabar Quarterly Review does not seem to be available online. It would be great if someone could add quotes and further references from this scholarly article.121.214.146.112 (talk) 11:42, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

If you have access to public libraries, try to read this article. I think it proves the connection of Nairs to Scythians by studying the Dopamine receptor D4 exon 3 genetic trait. Axxn (talk) 18:18, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

New Collage for Nairs

I have added a new image map for the front page image by adding a few more images. I think this is better than the previous image, as the captions can be avoided. If any more copyright free images are available, please replace some of the unimportant images and upload it again. Axxn (talk) 07:02, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Great work. Could you please add EK Nayanar, Satish Nambiar, Achyutha Menon and Madhavan Nair? Chandrakantha.Mannadiar (talk) 11:20, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

A few big shots missing.... but thanks a lot for creating it. 150.164.255.201 (talk) 18:14, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

article references require editing

dear friends ...in the main article on nairs, there is a reference of ram swarup joon's " history of jats" having mentioned the nagavanshi origin of the nairs... well i bought the book and read it thoroughly .... not only is there no mention of nairs anywhere in his book.... he claims jats are chandravanshis... so the message here is not to blindly take references... also the other books by jat historians, like lal pradaman singh and kishori lal faujdar need to be verified bfore we can include them in the references. Vivwiki (talk) 19:18, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

The works by Joon was based on the 1901 Census Report, which describes Nairs as "probably descendant from Nagavanshis who immigrated from the present day Rohilkhand or Newar". Faujdar's works were based on the earlier book by Joon. I haven't read Joon's book, so can't comment on that, but Faujdar clearly lists Nambiar (Kiryathil Nair) among the Nagavanshi clans. On the other hand, according to the 1901 Census report, no Jat clans are described as having even remote connection with Nagavanshis. So I am at a loss to explain how the Jat clans listed in Joon's works claim the status. Chintaman Vinayak Vaidya in his book "Downfall of Hindu India‎" describes Nair as Nagavanshi Kshatriya, but that book was published in 1986, much later than the works of Joon. Suresh.Varma.123 (talk) 16:23, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

thanks, mr varma... for clarifying, any idea where the books by faujdar /lal pradaman singh( history of nagavansh- are available?...the book by ram sarup joon is by turns both informative and amateurish....he claims jats were founders of italy and scandinavia?!!!!.. jats are a vibrant and hardy race , but this may be taking it too far!!!!!!Vivwiki (talk) 06:29, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm in for removing them. What'd u say? Axxn (talk) 06:35, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

hi, axxn.... yes perhaps the reference of ram sarup joon... have gone through the book... nothing about nagavanshis or nairs...keep the faujdar and lal pradaman sing references, until proved fallacious117.192.239.63 (talk) 18:36, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

OK. I have removed Joon's reference. Suresh.Varma.123 (talk) 05:00, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Regarding Faujdars's book, it is not a "book" at all. It is an article written in the magazine "Jat Samaj". Suresh.Varma.123 (talk) 05:01, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Is Nair Kshatriya?

It is seen that there is a lot of discussion going on regarding whether Nair is Kshathriya or not. But in the article, it is written whith out doubt that Nair is kshatriya. My opinion is that such a claim should be removed from the article. It doesnt matter whether Nair is kshathriya or not. Such a claim, which is not sure, is not suitable for an encyclopedia. I know almost all nairs will prefer to be a Kshathriya. There are more important things. The spelling of Nair is corrupted from the beginning itself. According to the actual pronounciation, it is Nayar. A term used in poojakabahuvachana. Its singular is Nayan (in Malayalam). The etymological resemblence with Naga should also not be avoided. There were Naga worship in Kerala and Tamilnadu. Nagarcoil, in kanyakumari district of tamilnadu. Snnair (talk) 05:14, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

This is not the place for OR and POV. Axxn (talk) 06:13, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Let us give the details such as classificationof nair in separate section. Let the article be readable with. The first sentence itself was a mess - a biased one. Why are you reverting without any discussion? There are many sub-sects in Nairs which are not Khshathriyas. So a separate section is needed distinguishing this. It is necessary for the article to be neutral. If you are so curious with the purity of the artile read the Etymology section. From months it says in its very first sentence that "The word Nair lends itself to two etymological interpretations". But only one interpretation is given there.Where is the second one?. The second was there very long back. But the majority kshathriya-biased nair wikipedians removed it. However they forget to remove the first sentence of this section. The article is totally biased with inappropriate sections. A complete clean-up is required. The term "Malayala Kshathriya" surprised me a lot. Have you heard any where in kerala such a term in common use? Snnair (talk) 06:20, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

I REPEAT - NAIRS ARE NOT KSHATRIYAS

Let us go through some reliable resources:

1. Malabar Manual by William Logan. It is writen by Logan while he was the Collector of Malabar. It gives a wonderful description of the old Malabar giving the details of the geography, flora and fauna, people and culture while he travelled extensively. In this book the term nayar is used almost as a synonym for the term Sudra.
   1. See Page 92.
   2. See Page 239
   3. See page 542.

1. The Travancore state manual, Volume 1 By V. Nagam Aiya, Kerala (India). Gazetteers Dept.
   1. See Page 846

Snnair (talk) 11:27, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

This issue has been discussed in detail many many times. If you have anything new to say, then state it here. Else just stay out of this article and take your POV to somewhere else. Shannon1488 (talk) 16:04, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Since you are rising the same issue very frequently and asking the same questions, I'll redirect you towards the archive than allowing you to waste others' time. First have a look at this. Suresh.Varma.123 (talk) 02:02, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Axxn, Shannon1488 and Suresh.Varma.123. This has been discussed already and we've reached a conclusion. So there is no need to start a separate discussion. If you want, you can renew the discussion here. Chandrakantha.Mannadiar (talk) 15:01, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Edit war on Nair page

Dear Johnuniq, thank you for the information regarding edit war in Nair page. In that page it is stated that Nairs are Malayala Kshatriyas. The terminology Malayala Kshatriya itself is a new one, you may find it only in wikipedia. Not in Britannica or other encyclopedias. The term Malayala Kshatriya itslef is fake. So I want to edit it. I tried to make the article neutral by stating that this is only a claim. But it got reverted soon. I asked a many times to the user Anand Krishnan to discuss on this matter. But without any discussion, he continued reverting. Now I noticed that he had maid the a comment in your talk page saying that he will be staying out of the article for the next 24 hours. Let the other users give their opinion and handle this issue. But the major problem is that a majority of editors from Kerala are nairs, and they will prefer the Kshatriya status (eventhough it has no meaning now a days). The truth is far behind than the opinion of majority. A nair can claim Kshathriya status because of his martial history. But all nairs are not Kshatriyas. There are different sub-sects which cannot claim such a status. All these factors should be mentioned in the article. The references provided in the article are also biased ones. Even if I make a discussion, the majority can quote too many such references and argue. Unless I get succeed the falls message will remain in the article (It will be very difficult to get a consensus among the editors of nair page). Is that you want? Presently the article is not neutral. What one can do in such a situation? Should we adopt the wish/opinion of a majority as truth? I wish to proceed with my editing. Please give reply in my talk page. Thank you. Snnair (talk) 09:52, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for giving a detailed explanation and not repeating the change in Nair. Please understand that content disputes are very common and the only way to proceed is to patiently make your case on the talk page of the article (Talk:Nair). Because "anyone can edit", one of the very firm rules on Wikipedia is that edit wars are prohibited: it is unacceptable to argue by repeating changes to an article (and everyone involved in such a case, when not covered by one of the exceptions mentioned at that link, are usually blocked for 24 hours initially, with longer blocks if repeated). I am mentioning this because your contributions indicate that you have been an editor for one day, although you seem to be fairly aware of how the system works. The information that you want to change appears to have been in the article for some time, and there does not appear to be an urgent need to implement your changes. Accordingly, you should calmly explain why the current text is unsatisfactory and why changes are needed at the article talk page. If, say, a few days of intermittent discussion do not resolve the issue, you can investigate dispute resolution. If you want my opinion on a procedural matter, please ask, but I have no expertise in the subject of the article and am unlikely to be much use with the content. Ultimately, material on Wikipedia is retained if it can be verified by reliable sources. Material which cannot be verified should be removed as a breach of no original research (but you need consensus to do that, possibly after dispute resolution). Johnuniq (talk) 10:19, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

The falls claim in the Nair page stating that Nair are Kshatriyas, not Sudras continues there in the article for more than two years. I tried to explain a number of times. Since the majority of editors are Nairs, they doesn't want to reveal the truth. I am not an editor for one day. This is a new identity created by me. The information that I wanted to change have been there in the article for more than two years. But that information is wrong. The editors wishes to propagate that wrong message. They will not allow anything against it. Atleast making the article neutral is not allowed. So there is an urgent need to implement my changes. You may not have expertise in the subject, but I request you to go through the content, arguments in the talk page etc. and give your opinion. It may be surprising for you that the reference quoted in the article now itslef clearly states that all nairs are not khstriyas. In the Malabar Manual by William Logan (note: It is already there in the refernce list of Nair page) the term nayar is used almost as a synonym with term Sudra. (See page 92., page 239), and page 542.). But the article claims that Nairs are Kshatriyas not Sudras. Such a false claim started from the beginning of the birth of the article and still continues. A lot of readers alreaded started believing this also. So there is an URGENT need of correction. The present editors will not allow such a change. They will continue reversion. Also I wish to bring the fact that the term Malayala Kshatriya is coined by wikipedians only. This is a fake terminology. Keralites never used such a term to denote caste. Anyway from now onwards I will proceed with editing in talk page. I hope you can do something in making the article neutral. Please take this as urgent. Thank you Snnair (talk) 10:48, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

You are clearly concerned, yet the editors with a different opinion also have strong views. It is simply impossible in such a situation for anything to happen quickly. I strongly recommend that you express yourself calmly and do not suggest that the matter is "urgent", because that is one point that uninformed onlookers can see is wrong (there are some errors that need urgent correction in Wikipedia, mainly concerned with potential libel regarding living people, but a possible error in Nair is not urgent). While the issue in question may be important or even urgent to you, I am afraid that it does not have the same significance to other editors (if you look at WP:ANI you will see reports of many disputes everyday). I cannot get involved in the content dispute because of the difficulty of an outsider trying to understand the issues. Perhaps you could make a user subpage like User:Snnair/Nair and on that page make a section with the part of the current text that you want to remove, including any references. Then explain what the problem with the current text is. You could have another section with what you think the text should be, with some references and explanations. Link to your text from the article talk page, and investigate the options at WP:DR. I did have a quick look at the links in your above message, but for some reason each shows me the cover of a book rather than the particular page. Johnuniq (talk) 11:14, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

I would like to summarize a few things before moving this section to the Nair talk page.

• By his own admission User:X has been indulging in vandalism on Nair article for the past 2 years by committing edit-war, POV pushing, name calling, adding defamatory information and section blanking.

• Not satisfied with the results with his own original user account, User:X creates a sock puppet to use exclusively for vandalizing the Nair related articles

• User:X tried to cheat other users by naming his sock "Snnair", threby trying to give an impression that he is a Nair (although we know from his last 2 years of editing that he is an Ezhava).

• Immediately after creating his sock account, User:X tries to vandalize the Nair article by indulging in adding defamatory POV and removing well sourced paragraphs.

• His sole aim for the last 2 years has been to slander the Nairs as "Sudra" ( a highly derogatory term, which if used in public would land the offender in prison). The colonial POV which he is siting is irrelevant and biased as can be seen from the consensus reached on the talk pages. For example, in the Judaism article, no one will add that "Jews were also known as Kik*s". Like this in the African-American page, no one will add that "African Americans are Negroes" just because they were known as such during the 19th century.

• The points which he is repeatedly pointing out has been discussed in detail in the past, as can be seen from the archives on the talk page. But User:X has been unwilling to drop the stick and back slowly away from the horse carcass.

• The amount of abuse he is hurling at the Nair community is inflaming racial tensions and I sincerely advice User:X to target a particular ethnic group just because he does not like them.

There fore these are my suggestions to User:X -

• You can create a user subpage and fill it with whatever pejoratives and vulgarities you like. You can read the "enlightened" article after every 5 minutes and get multiple orgasms by going through it.

• You can concentrate more on articles related to your own ethnic group and stop targeting other ethnic groups.

Thanks. Suresh.Varma.123 (talk) 15:41, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Third rate behavior. It is not the sock puppetry which angers me. The fact that he disguised as a Nair to vandalise the Nair article is what making me crazy. What is the need for such cheating? See his edits here. There he says "I admit Nairs are Kshatriyas". Here he says something else. Also, I can see that he hurled personal abuse at the user who reverted his vandalism and vandalised his userpage. For a wikipedian who has been active for 2 years now, this sort of behavior is somewhat...... appalling. Shannon1488 (talk) 16:02, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

The tolerance shown here towards Mr.SnEzhava is very surprising. He must have been banned a long time ago. On the other hand, I would like to state some important facts. In caste related discussions, opinion by Ezhavas are not widely sought after, as they are well known for Bhoshku parachil (slandering against higher castes). Things have progressed to such an extent that Bhoshku parachil, along with Pulabhyam vili and Pooram kali are now regarded as indigenous art forms of South Malabar and are patronized under both SNDP and CPI (M). 163.10.0.68 (talk) 19:15, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Dear friends, I am user Snnair. I write this only because you are mistaken (Afterall the entire life is a collection of mistakes). I am nithar an Ezhava nor the user referred by you people as user X. I edited this article because I had my own genuine reasons. I have no relation with user X. I also noticed the edits by the person whom you are referring as user X. Dont think that I am the same person. Anyhow, now I am using my account with sir name Nair. because I found no alternative use for this sir name. It neither helps me for my livelyhood nor for my status in society. So why should I claim to be a Kshatriya. Let the user X take your comments. I am not that user. Thank you for your comments. Snnair (talk) 07:35, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Mr.SN, I thought you will have atleast some minimum commonsense. After reading your comments here, will any sane person really believe that you are a Nair? Your plans were disastrous and idiotic from the very beginning. Hope you will learn from your mistakes next time. Also note one thing. Almost all the editors (including me) you will find here decided to join Wikipedia just because vandals like you were continuously abusing the Nair caste without any reason. If you refrain from such attacks it will be good for both of us, and if not, it is going to be bad for both of us. No one is going to gain anything by spreading communal hatred. And I don't think people will think positively of someone who frequently abuse others. Chandrakantha.Mannadiar (talk) 14:57, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Frankly, Mr, it does not matter whether your are a Nair or a Pulaya. I have only one thing to say. Never under estimate your opponents. If you are still wondering why you were busted from the very beginning, I strongly advice you to read the posts you have made very carefully once more. Suresh.Varma.123 (talk) 16:15, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Reply to the vandals targeting this article

Since Ezhavas are targeting this article without any provocation, I'd suggest adding the following facts to the Ezhava article:

• State that Ezhavas are Untouchables (Avarna) in the introductory paragraph. Ezhavas were not allowed within 24 feet of a Nair and 36 feet of a Nambuthiri. See the following reference:

"in the presence of a Namboodiri (Brahmin) an Ezhava ( an untouchable ) had to stand 36 feet away and in the presence of a Nair (Kshatriya) he had to stand 24 feet away" - Google Ebook 1

If you doubt about the validity of this reference, you can search in the net about Dr. K.P. Bhagat. He was the former principal of the Hislop Education Society. Suresh.Varma.123 (talk) 02:30, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

• State that the major occupation of the Ezhavas were Arrack brewing and toddy trapping.

Google Ebook 2

I'll give more references later. Suresh.Varma.123 (talk) 02:13, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Nairs are Kshatriya

Some vandals have made it a habit to raise the varna issue every two or three days. So I am posting more sources:

• [1] - Nair (Nagara) Kshatriyas sent out a religious invasion under Sankara which subjugated the whole of India. The history of Kerala goes hack to the days of the Mahabharatha and the Ramayana.

• [2] - The Nairs are included in the Kshatriya class (soldiers) and the castes below Nairs are considered as Sudras (slaves).

• [3] - In the southern parts of the peninsula, the Nairs (a species of country nobility rather than a distinct tribe) are considered to belong to the warrior caste. Whether they are the dispersed remnants of the old Kshatriyas, is not yet sufficiently ascertained.

• [4] - None of these people, except possibly the Nairs of Kerala and the Rajus of Andhra, have been viewed by some as Kshatriya

• [5] - Nairs of Malabar enjoyed social power similar to that claimed by Kshatriyas of the North.

• [6] - The Nairs of Kerala, Mudaliars of Tamilnad, Reddys of Andhra are low castes only in the sense of sacred thread, but for all practical purposes they are equal to the Kshatriya.

• [7] - Mention is made also of an expedition into Malabar to assist the Kshatriya rulers, the Nairs, against an insurrection of the natives.

• [8] - The Bhataraka was probably his father-in-law, and the Kshatriyas (the Nairs) against whom the aboriginal Malabarians had revolted.

• [9] - Nair or Menon caste are considered equivalent to Kshatriya or the warrior caste.

• [10] - The war-like Nairs once lorded over the famous state, Kerala. They were of Kshatriya blood, possessed of all the attributes suggested by the name.

• [11] - The Kshatriya or soldier caste is practically identical with the Rajputs of North Central India, and the Nairs of the south. Outside the three " twice- born castes, the whole of the mass of the Indian people were classed as Sudras.

• [12] - The warrior caste, the Nairs, who claimed to be the equivalent of the Kshatriyas in other parts of India now came into being. Racially they were half Aryan.

• [13] - (Brahmans) and Nayar (Kshatriya) in Kerala. According to the theory

• [14] - After the decline of Perumal rule in Kerala, the Nayar Kshatriya rulers became powerful.

• [15] - This is because for a long period, the Nambuthiri (Brahmin) and the Nair (Kshatriya) communities would begin their education with Sanskrit and would continue their studies in Sanskrit.

• [16] - in the presence of a Namboodiri (Brahmin) an Ezhava ( an untouchable ) had to stand 36 feet away and in the presence of a Nair (Kshatriya) he

• [17] - Inheritance

• [18] - "A Nayar or Kshatriya bridegroom holds a drawn sword in his right hand. This procession is considered to be the most spectacular of the entire function."

• [19] Nayar (Malayalam-speaking caste claiming Kshatriya status)

• [20] Only the Nair (Kshatriya) community and it's subcastes practised matriarchy in Kerala.

• [21] - Of the Kshatriyas we find but a few who lay claim to the honours of that caste ; and here I may observe, that it is general throughout India for the different castes of fighting Shudras, whose peculiar dharma or religions duty it is to engage in war and plunder, to call themselves Kshatriyas, although, according to Hindoo history, all that race was annihilated by divine wrath. The Nair of Malabar, who is notoriously of servile caste, will describe himself and his ancestors as belonging to the royal or fighting division; wears the Janeo or thread of the twice born, and demeans himself accordingly.

• [22] - Within South India, It was only in Kerala that there emerged warrior lineages approximate to the Kshatriya model. Nayar ' Kshatriya-hood ' was thus based on special ecological conditions within the south Indian macro-region.

• [23] - One of the theories propagated about the origin of Paramaras gives notable clues about the relation that sustained Nambutiri (Brahmins) and Nayar (Kshatriya) in Kerala.

• [24] - The Chera Kings the first known rulers of Kerala, were by origin of Nayar

• [25] - "Chera, Chola and Pandya, who were descendants of the fire, the sun and the moon respectively.

• [26] - The Nayar caste took the place of the Kshatriyas

• [27] - The historical household unit among the Nayar of the Kshatriya caste in South-West India.

• [28] - Nair (Kerala Kshatriya caste)

• [29] - The annual arattu - Taking the image of god for a final purifying bath in a procession headed by his majesty with his Nair (Kshatriya) officers with drawn swords must have been an awe-inspiring sight

• [30] / [31] - for after mentioning an expedition of his into Malabar to aid the Kshatriya (Nair) rulers, against the rebellious natives of the province.

• [32] - All this was done by Nair Kshatriyas under orders of Adiyodi. This chamber is called the Aryan Smoke Chamber.

• [33] - But the bulk of those who carried on the Kshatriya profession (ie warfare) were drawn from the Nair caste.

• [34] - Nayar is the caste corresponding to the Kshatriyas, second in importance to the Brahmans. At present, Nair or Nayar is a title added to nearly all the names of the race, and it is, like Mister or Esquire, assumed as a birthright by any.

• [35] - Gen. Candeth was very proud of his ancestry. "I am a Nair from Kerala. I am a Kshatriya", he had told this reporter at the time of the interview.

• [36] - The Kshatriya, or military class is said by the Brahmins to be extinct. But the Rajpoots and the Nairs in the Deccan in all probability belong to this class.

• [37] - Specifically, the Jews adapted the religious behaviours and symbol complexes of two significant Hindu reference groups: the dominant Nayar caste (particularly the local royal family) and, from a distance, the Nambudiris, the highest brahmin caste of Kerala.

• [38] - The Reddys of Andhra, the Vellalas of Tamil Nadu, and the Nayars of Malabar never accepted the four-fold division. Also, they enjoyed as communities social power similar to that claimed by the Kshatriyas.

• [39] - his very boyhood, because divine Brahmanic qualities filled his veins, though the people of his caste in Kerala are noted for their Kshatriya spirit.

• [40] - Warriors of Kerala in historical times were the Nairs, who, by occupation combined the functions of Kshatriyas with those of the Vaisyas.

• [41] - For many reasons, the Kshatriyas and the Nayars are not different castes.

• [42] - The ethnology of the Nayars is as interesting as their sociology. They claim to be Kshatriyas by caste.

• [43] - The Nayars are treated as Kshatriyas.

• [44] - Perhaps most of the Kshatriyas are Samantans belonging to high caste Nayars.

• [45] - In Malabar warrior lineages did emerge and ruled over larger territorial units; these were the Nayars, who, if not as Shudras, were regarded as Kshatriyas.

• [46] - The Nayars form the bulk of the Hindu population of Malabar, and they are considered as de-casted Kshatriyas.

• [47] - The Nayars, members of the Kshatriya or warrior caste, ruled all those regions for many centuries under various kings and priests.

• [48] - The Nayars, however, are primarily a military caste. Though they have become greatly mixed in recent times, and they are said to be regarded as Kshatriyas.

• [49] - It further relates that the original Newars were drawn from the Nayars and were Brahma-Kshatriya.

• [50] - For instance, apart from the Nayars of Kerala the Kshatriya or warrior order is virtually nonexistent in the South.

• [51] - The Nayars traditionally performed Kshatriya and Vaishya functions.

• [52] - Groups such as the Nayars, whose activities as rulers and professional warriors would normally equate them with the Kshatriya.......

• [53] - The Nayars (traditional warriors) followed Marumakkathayam.

• [54] - The Nayars are Malayalam speaking people, and may be described as the Kshatriyas or fighting clans of Southern India.

• [55] - JC Locke, in his The First Englishmen in India describes the Nairs as the polyandrous warrior race of Malabar. They correspond to the Kshatriyas of the rest of India.

• [56] - Social status of the Nairs (Kshatriyas) in Malabar society at that time...

• [57] - Nairs (Kshatriyas).

• [58] - Kshatriyas and Samantans were originally Nairs

• [59] - The Nairs were given a dominant position in the caste hierarchy and were functionally equated with the Kshatriyas.

• [60] - and Kshatriya Nairs of Kerala.

• [61] - Among them, until recently, only the eldest son was allowed to take a wife from his own caste (the others had to marry Nairs who are Kshatriyas and their......).

• [62] - Kshatriya: Rajpoots and the Nairs in the Deccan belong to this class.

• [63] - Se trouvait flatté du rapprochement, puisque les Nairs, en dépit de leurs pratiques irrégulières, sont rangés comme Ksatriyas parmi les castes nobles.

• [64] - The Nairs (or Nayars), a twice-born caste that constitutes some 15 per cent of the Hindu population in the state, was once a warrior community practising.....

• [65] - Stranieri sono anche i rappresentanti della casta ksatriya, pochissimi di numero anche al tempo in cui il Papi scrive; i Nayar, di casta simile alla loro ma.....

• [66] - Kerala ritual, which he calls the "sorcery," "martial," and "priestly" complexes, corresponding to three caste divisions (Sudra, Ksatriya/ Nayar, and Brahmin).

• [67]- dasarkan kasta adalah kasta Ksatria Nayar yang bersifat matrilineal di Kerala (Gough,1961).

• [68] - Kalarippayattu is traditionally associated with the Nayar caste, which corresponds, in Kerala, to the Ksatriya military caste of the classical Indian tradition.

• [69] - Among the Kshatriya (warrior) class, the Nayar caste was predominant on the Malabar coast. Nayar males were "not permitted to marry, rear families........

• [70] - In the arid hill country which is now known as Rajastan, powerful lords and their arms bearing retainers had been calling themselves Rajputs. These people's closest counterparts elsewhere were the users of the south Indian designations Nayar and Nayaka

• [71] - For example, Nairs are not considered by him as shudras. But there is a line of pollution, and Nairs are much above this line.

• [72] - Dames writes that the Nairs are " classed as Sudras, whereas their real analogy is with the Kshatriyas of ancient, and the Rajputs of modern days.

• [73] - The Nairs had enjoyed throughout Kerala, the status of Kshatriyas.

• [74] - The Rajpoots and Nairs in the Deccan are supposed to belong to the Kshatriya. If the class be extinct, as the Brahmins allege, this may be owing to the peaceful character of the people, their freedom from foreign invasion, and the commercial habits which characterise the Hindoo.

• [75] - Nairs took the place of Kshatriyas.

• [76] - Nairs, who as the warriors of the country, should by analogy be called Kshatriyas rather than Sudras — a curious revelation ascribed to Parasu Rama.

• [77] - Nairs who, being given the function of defence, became analogous to Kshatriyas.

• [78] - The Nairs are also the martial race, like the Kshatriya castes of northern India.

• [79] - Kshatriya, or military class, is said by the Brahmans to have become extinct; but the Rajpoots and the Nairs in all probability belong to this class.

• [80] - As few Kshatriyas came from the North, the Nair chieftains took the place of the Kshatriyas, and with their great grit and adaptability a remarkable military system was established in Kerala under the lead of the Nairs.

• [81] - Nairs, en dépit de leurs pratiques irrégulières, sont rangés comme Ksatriyas.

• [82] - Nayars were members of the warrior or Kshatriya caste, the second highest caste of Indian society. Nayar men trained as professional soldiers.

• [83] - Their enactment are neither documentary records of the ruler-warrior (ksatriya) caste (Nayars) nor the fantasies of poets writing in isolation.

• [84] - The Nayars, though Kshatriyas by profession in earlier days....

• [85] - It was needful that there should be a protector or Kshatriya caste ; so they promoted the ruling race to this distinction, and called them Nayars.

• [86] - Brahmans have mating relations with the female members of the matrilineal Kshatriya Nayars.

• [87] - Themselves tenants of chiefly Nayars (Samantan or Kshatriya Nayars).

• [88] - Others held 12 year kanam lease from those (Nambuthiris or Kshatriya Nayars) with a superior title to land.

• [89] - à celle des Ksatriya (Nayar).

• [90] - Varadpande points out an intriguing parallel with the present day Kutiyattam performers, the Cakyars, who claim their descent from the ancient sutas and are historically the children of the union of Brahman Nambudiris and Kshatriya Nairs of Kerala.

• [91] - The Nayar caste took the place of the Kshatriyas.

• [92] - It was the Prince of Kottarakara, from a Nayar ruling family in the south of Kerala, who produced.......

• [93] / [94] - The two dominant castes—Namboodiris (Brahmins or the priestly caste) and Nairs (Kshatriyas or the aristocratic caste)—stood at the apex of the system of customary obligations and rights, and together they appropriated the largest share of the cultivator's product.

• [95] - He mentions how various peasant castes like the marathas, reddis, vellalas, nayars, and coorgs were able to claim kshatriya status in the Deccan and in south India.

• [96] - The Nayar are traditionally a warrior caste.

• [97] / [98] - Dr. Gundert defines the Nayars as the Sudras of Kerala, raised to the rank of Kshatriyas by their intimate connection with the Brahmans.

• [99] - The military aristocracy of the Nayars, confined to the coast of Malabar, is founded on polyandry.

• [100] - Their persecution by the Maravar (warrior caste of the southeast) and the Nayar (warrior caste of the southwest) was itself proof that the Shanar were a conquered race of early Tamil royalty.
• [101] - In the Apartheid Andhrite Vijayanagar varna system, a semi-Aryan Nair warrior would shoot a Dravidian Sudra Negro at sight.

• [102] - They are considered generally as a Dravidian variety of the Aryan Kshatriyas.

• [103] - These were historically the monopoly of certain savarna (upper caste) Hindus with distinct ‘middle class’ orientation and cultural values, and who benefited from early access to western education. Among them are the Brahmins, Khatris, Kayasthas, the Bengali bhadralok, Nairs, etc. For simplicity’s sake, we may label them ‘Brahmin-plus’ communities as opposed to the Vaishya-plus Old Guard. --------------- Axxn (talk) 18:10, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Thank you so much. But you have forgot to add the most important link. Shabdatharavali, the most comprehensive work on Malayalam language gives the description of Nair as: Nairs are the Malayalee warriors (Kshathriyas) of Kerala. They are the owners of this land. [104] Suresh.Varma.123 (talk) 17:46, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

great job, by mr suresh varma!... to dig out so many articles supporting nair kshatriya status!...anyways by karma nairs are nothing but kshatriyas!...howvever its better we dont call ourselves nagavanshi kshatriyas as that is a misnomer by itself,,, nagas were outside the aryan 4 fold system... i have a couple of queries though... in the book- short history of kerala- k v k ayyar... he talks about nairs being descendants of the aratta vahikas of the punjab- gandhara area on basis of matrilineal inheritance .... i guess his theory is quite plausible... also atleast 3 authors logan, risley and u balakrishnan nair have quite strongly a pallava( and hence parthian?0 orogin of the nayars.....valluvanad is thought to have been founded by the pallavas.Vivwiki (talk) 19:44, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Hmmm.... sorry to disappoint you, as it was not me who dug up all those refs. You can see that my post is confined to just the two lines above your post. About the Parthian / Aratta Vahika origin, I haven't done much study on them, so will need quite some time. Till now all that I got from that book (KVK Iyer – History of Kerala) is this paragraph: "Looking at the characteristics of the Nayars, the Aratta vahikas of the Mahabharata seem to provide the right comparison. They were ayudhajivans, their women had considerable freedom, the man’s heir was his sister’s son and these Aratta vahikas might themselves have been a branch of the Brahuis of Baluchistan. They probably moved down south following the invasion of Darius (518-516). Some moved to Tulunad, some came through the Palakkad gap; some went to Laccadives & Ceylon. Some were stranded in pockets around North Arcot, Trichy and Salem." I hope other users will be able to do a little bit more of research on this. Suresh.Varma.123 (talk) 03:09, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

yes.... the credit goes to axnn!!!... good job!...Vivwiki (talk) 05:17, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

It is wrong to say that the Nagas were outside the 4 fold system since they were non-Aryan. Almost all the indigenous people of India, including Aryans, Scythians, Nagas and Dravidians were classified in to the 4-fold system (For example the Cholas were classified as Suryavanshi Kshatriya). Nagavanshi clans exist among Rajputs and Jats as well. The Maharajah of Chotanagpur was a Nagavanshi Kshatriya as can be noticed from here and here. One of my friends is a Nagavanshi Kshatriya (Rajput) from Jeypore in Orrissa. But if you go to Nagavanshi article, it is full of Jat POV and you'll find hardly any mention of Rajputs and Nairs. Ancient copper plate inscriptions about Nagavanshi Kshatriyas has been discovered from Chandrapur in Maharashtra. Also, the reference used (Downfall of Hindu India by Chintaman Vinayak Vaidya) for terming Nairs as Kshatriya in the introductory paragraph (which in my opinion should be changed to include the definition from the Shabdatharavali) states that Nairs are "Nagara Kshatriyas". So what I am saying is that it is quite hard to ignore the Naga origin, as it is cited by a large number of sources. Suresh.Varma.123 (talk) 11:45, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for posting so many sources to prove that Nair is Kshatriya. The vandalism by lower castes was going on for a long long time, and i hope this will shut their mouths for a while. Chandrakantha.Mannadiar (talk) 13:30, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

/* A Genuine Doubt */

Nairs may be Kshatriyas, at least for argument's sake. At the same time, what explanation can there be for the Royal families of Kerala to refrain from treating the Nairs at par?-i.e to say considering the Nairs as a caste of equal status, and marrying off their girls to Nairs? I would suggest a review of the social structure of Trivandrum, Kilimanoor, Mavelikkara and Tripunithura, to start with, where the society is built around the 'Palace'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.148.177.98 (talk) 19:10, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

The Royal families are Nairs only, but they were accorded a special status by the Brahmins. Marriage is a very complex thing, as a Kiryathil Nair woman can't be married off to a Charna Nair and a Illathu Nair woman never marries a Swaroopathil Nair. Also, only those children who were born to Brahmin fathers and Kshatriya mothers were considered proper Kshatriya by the Nambuthiris. Those few royal clans like the Travancore Maharajahs who married off their females to other Kshatriyas were required to undergo hiranyagarbha before the coronation. There is no "parity" amongst the Nairs. Different subcastes among the Nairs do have varying social status. For example a Kiryathil Nair can take food together with a Brahmin, but subcastes below them are forbidden to do so. Also, a Charna Nair is not allowed to take food in the company of a Kiryathil Nair. There are no two subcastes which are having equal social status. A clan might consider another clan either as superior to them or inferior to them, but no Nair clan will consider another Nair clan as equivalent to them in status. (Source: The Internal Structure of the Nayar Caste, C. J. Fuller). And finally one more thing. I just checked the membership list given on the official websites for both the Cochin Royal Family and Mavelikkara Palace. I hardly found any Brahmins mentioned, but there were a significant number of Menons and Nairs (both males and females). And I am myself a descendant of Samanta Kshatriya - Illathu Nair mixed marriage. Suresh.Varma.123 (talk) 21:01, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

You have parried the question. However, I am not surprised any more at your eagerness to equate Nairs and Kshatriyas. The last sentence in your 'answer' gives it away.Pushpangadan.Sharma.456 (talk) 11:29, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

If you don't like the answer, then it is not my problem. I am not here to please anyone, especially the ones like you. Keep fuming with jealousy. Suresh.Varma.123 (talk) 12:08, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Does a mulatto stir up jealousy? I am not so sure!Pushpangadan.Sharma.456 (talk) 15:54, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

status of the vaniya nair and maniyani

does anybody have any idea about the vaniya nair and maniyani of north malabar...most of them attach nair as a surname... what are their origins?.. are vaniya nairs same as chakkala nairs? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vivwiki (talk • contribs) 19:47, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Actually this is very controversial. Maniyanis argue that they are a subsection of Nair, but the South Malabar Nairs (proper) argue that they are a part of Kammalar. By occupation, Maniyanis are similar to Kammalars, as they are temple architects. Maniyanis claim they are descendants of Yaduvanshi Kshatriyas (Yadav of vedic time period, not the Ahir-Yadav of present day). Like the Nairs, Maniyanis are divided in to Illakkar and Kiryathils. Most prominent Maniyani clans are Moonnillam (3 illam) and Ezhillam (7 illam). Maniyanis do have several similarities with Yadavs. They supply milk to Sri Krishna temples in Malabar and are mostly concentrated around them. During the census of Malabar, Maniyanis were among the dozens of originally non-Nair castes which were grouped in to the category "Nair-Inferior" by the ignorant official William Logan. The proper Nairs were listed as "Nair-Superior" and never considered any subdivision amongst the Kammalars as related to them. Maniyanis, like the Kammalar, held a status which is intermediate between the lowest subdivision of Nair and the highest subdivision of Thiyya in Malabar. They are considered Savarna. (Although for a brief period they were expelled from the Savarna community for eating beef when Tipu's army forced them to do so. A Sudha Kriya (purification) ceremony was performed under the guidance of the Raja of Chirakkal and their caste status was reinstated). Maniyanis are classified as OBC due to the discrimination they faced from Charnavars during the Nair rule.

Vaniya Nair is also not original Nair. They were mostly immigrants from Tamil Nadu and Andhra Pradesh who were granted a status equivalent to lower ranking Nairs by the Nambuthiris. The Brahmins only gave them "status equivalent to a lower ranking Nair", but these people began claiming that they belong to the Nair caste sometime later. Like the other Vanika Vaishyas, some of them do wear the sacred thread and some of them don't wear it. Their customs are entirely unrelated to martial Nairs and intermarriage was not allowed with them. Both the sections (thread wearing ones and non-thread wearing ones) are considered much inferior to Nair proper and as separate castes. Suresh.Varma.123 (talk) 02:54, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

ya... thanks actually i asked because in matrimonials both vaniya nairs and maniyanis are putting themselves under nairs and also in north malabar and kasargod the definition of a genuine nair really blurs... only the nambiars are considered the genuine ones!.. my father in law is a nambiar( i am a cochin nair) and he told me that even kaniyans( astrologers0 add the title nair...Vivwiki (talk) 10:27, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Maniyanis(milkman,temple bell maker),chaliyans(weavers),vanniyars(textile trader) all small immigrant communities now part of kannur and kasargod population. I have never heard any one calling them nair.They all have their own organisations. They are no way above the dominant Thiyya community. Nambiars are the only one equivalent for the southern nairs and they for sure dont marry maniyanis/chaliyans/vanniyars or even some of the southern nairs.78.101.140.213 (talk) 21:45, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

interesting connection between nairs and rajputs!

i came across an interesting paragraph in logan's " malabar manual"-rajputs in malabar.

" Of Rajputs, or foreign kshatriyas, there are in malabar ( census 1881) only 362 all told. The families of the Kottayam and parappanad chieftains used to be called the Puranatt( foreign) raja.

the parapannad family supplies consorts to the ranis of travancore , and also form similar connections with the families of chieftains of malabar. they follow the marumakkathayam line of inheritance".

it appears as the rajputs/ foreign kshatriyas would have been assimilated into samanta kshatriya/ kiriyathil families.it also proves that nairs have been an inclusive community... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vivwiki (talk • contribs) 11:18, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Foreign Kshatriyas were assimilated to the Nair community in small numbers during 17th-19th century. Rajputs, Marathas and Bunts (Malabar), Arya Vysyas (Palghat), Konkani speaking Brahmins and Vaishyas (Cochin), Iyers, Vellalars, Maravars (Travancore) were all assimilated to various Nair clans in smaller numbers. Suresh.Varma.123 (talk) 12:12, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Totally agree with you. My own ancestors (meenachil karthas) belonged to a royal lineage which migrated to Kerala from Mewar, who were Rajputs, on reaching Travancore, they were assimilated into Nair fold (Kartha) and had the previlage to rule a kingdom which is as big as a 'panchayath' these days. Their women were married to Namboothiris and men married illathu nairs, till around 50 years back they used to conduct certain rituals and customes which were totally unknown to the kerala kings. They were strict vegetarians, had vaishnava 'U' tilak on their large forehead, had colorful funeral processions, singh surname etc though they had no sacred thread. Today noone follows these rituals and the new genration remains just 'Nairs' with Nair,Menon and Kartha surnames (the earlier title of 'Damodara simhar' is non-existent).This goes to show where the Nairs were positioned in the society and remains a source of truth unlike the many versions we get from authors who distorted facts to suite their vested interests.Keraleeyan

At first I thought you were joking. But when I read the District Gazeteer for Kottayam (Pages:34-35), I found that what you were saying was a historic fact. Anyway, I've started the article here: Meenachil Kartha. Suresh.Varma.123 (talk) 16:54, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks a lot Suresh for starting this article. In fact I was waiting to collect more data before I could start this. The content you have added are correct and some of them were added by me in the ‘Kartha’ article. I should be able to further enhance this article once I get a chance to visit Kerala next time.

In fact after the onslaught by the Travancore, they were Kings sans kingdom and survived on the ‘pension’ allotted by Travancore and later by the Indian government after forming the Indian state. During this period, the Karthas turned to ayurveda and were famous physicians (vaidyar) in Palai.Keraleeyan —Preceding undated comment added 06:21, 21 April 2010 (UTC).

Some doubts..... As per the district gazeteer, the invasion of Meenachil occurred in 1754 and Marthanda Varma was responsible for it. The 3-4 survivors traveled North and were granted assylum by the Zamorin. But the survivors had to flee again in 1766 when Hyder Ali invaded Malabar and sought assylum in Travancore (Dharma Raja was the king). It was only in 1766, that they were allotted pension. Hope to get more info from you after your Kerala trip. Suresh.Varma.123 (talk) 14:07, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

yes!.... what a wonder india is?!!... even in the kerala society papers, there is a mention of the minachil karthas, how they differ from other nairs of the llathu clan....rajputs peneterated deep into india and ceylon.... remember the famous rani padmini of chittorgarh was from ceylon... also many tamil mudaliars/ vellalas keep names like jaisingh/ jeyasingh...i also feel rather than newars coming from nepal and becoming nairs, nairs went to nepal and fought for the king nanyadeva, probably that explains some similarities between kerala and nepal.... nairs were in great demand as soldiers, it is felt the vijayanagar army contained a great many nairs, too.Vivwiki (talk) 05:26, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

I have read about Nairs of Vijayanagara. It can be proved with ease. But on the other hand, a migration from Kerala to Newar is very difficult to prove. I haven't seen any historical sources. Suresh.Varma.123 (talk) 14:17, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

meenachil karthas are rajputs agreed but how on earth are rajputs aryans.the rajputs have their own agnikula origin myth and most historians and anthrophologists are of the view rajupts are scythian(lack of sacred thread among many rajput clans).some sources even point out of them being huns which is debatable but rajputs definately are not pure blooded aryans.and nairs of vijaynagara what do you mean by that,nairs served as generals for vijayanagara empire in kerala but they never ventured toward vijayanagara(present day hampi) unlike the bunts who did,the Tuluva dynasty founded by nagavanshi bunts.if you ever visit hampi you will find a lot of serpent shrines there similar to nagabana of the bunts or sarpa kavu of nairs from the tuluva dynasty period but they were built by bunts there.i have serious doubts whether nairs were there in capital city of vijayanagara empire.Linguisticgeek (talk) 15:31, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

to vivwiki your point is a bit far fetched don't you think.nairs are not indigenous to kerala which is what most records say.how on earth nairs from kerala went to nepal and became newars.newar-nair connection is to me a bit non sensical.newari nair customs are not exactly similar when compared to lets say bunt-nair customs which are almost identical.also the theory is based on a ridiculous point nepali temples have similar architecture to kerala/tulu nadu temples.architectural similarities might be due to nepali kings appointing only namboodiri to serve as priests initially and also tulu brahmins(embrandiri) from the 18 century.Linguisticgeek (talk) 15:40, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

 hi, linguistic geek... some clarifications...

i subscribe to the general view that nairs are not indigenous to kerala... they are definitely invaders, most likely of scythian origin. 2. i do not wish to say that the nairs became newars, rather the few who went as soldiers to fight for raja nanyadeva got assimilated into the larger newar community. 3. i agree that anybody who thinks nairs and newars are related are really casting the net too far!!!!...newars are heavily mongoloid looking, nairs resemble mediterranean caucasoids....but all the same, english writers like oldham and colonel fitzpatrick found similaities between nair matriliny and newar matriliny and yup the rather strange similarities in architecture.. i recently read a book- the gorkhas by parmar and according to him nairs are above medium stature , while newars are short and below medium statured.

about the vijaynagar connection it was put forward by thurston- his reference is the book- vijayanagar a forgotten empire. since nairs are a favourite of all writers from duarte barbosa to fawcett, there are many views of their origin... why chandra chakraborty in his book " racial basis of history of asia" .. refers to ' HUNA NAYARS"- huns... of course that is taking it too far!. and william halse rivers connects nairs to todas - on the basis of anthropometric measurements.....todas being a very pure proto nordic / north indid group and nairs belonging much to the same race but shorter than the todas due to admixture with the earlier inhabitants of australoid racial affinities.

so there are many diverse views, but really no one outstanding one!but yes nairs arrived in kerala mostly from the north. Vivwiki (talk) 19:10, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

ok, friends lets not get into a slanging match!!!....for the unknown ip user, just check out the bottom of the nair main page on wikipedia.... there is a nair DNA website, where some mtDNA and Y dna has been analysed ....the main lineages appear to be similar to eastern european and mediterranean genetic pools...of course only 17 members have been analysed and that is too small a sample for a reasonably large community as the nairs are,.... if i am not mistaken that project has been taken up by NRI nairs, i think our own NSS should start something on similar lines... especially when communities like bunts and coorgs have also taken up an initiative to study their genetic make up.....like kuttapan nair says the strength of our community is the varying genetic make up.... also i read with some interest the article on the minachil karthas.... quite tragic actually...i still fail to understand marthanda varma's almost genocidal wiping out of so many nair families! he and the father son duo of hyder ali - tipu sultan must rank as the worst enemies of nairs!...but look whats happened to both the families- tipu's descendants pull rickshaws in calcutta and the descendants of martanda varma are living a life of isolation and decay!.... Vivwiki (talk) 17:10, 23 April 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vivwiki (talk • contribs) 17:09, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Blame the real culprit. Marthanda Varma became the king when he was still in his 20s. The inexperienced prince was brainwashed by Ramayyan Dalawa, a Tamil Iyer who held much hatred against the Nairs. And one more thing.... not only the Nairs suffered under him. Marthanda Varma's actions against the Ettara Yogam and the deportation / banishment of Malayali Brahmins is equally famous. Malayali Brahmins lost each and every aspect of power they once held under the rule of Marthanda Varma. Only the Tamil Brahmins and the Tamil mercenaries (Maravars.etc) gained under his rule. Suresh.Varma.123 (talk) 05:53, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

also it is interesting to read that raja rama varma married a rajput princess from present day avadh ( kosala).... i guess our forefathers had no qualms about marrying from UP !!!!!... today all hell would break loose if a nair boy/ girl would marry a UPite, bihari or punjabi!.... lets face it down the ages, indians have become more parochial and conservative!... even the north indians still have prejudices against south indians! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vivwiki (talk • contribs) 17:20, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

It is important for a number of reasons. First, the Travancore Maharajah is regarded as a Samanthan Nair, not a Samanta Kshatriya. The fact that he could marry a Rajput princess proves that Samanthan Nairs were considered equal or above the Rajput in caste status. Second, the Kunju Thampis, (sons of Raja Rama Varma with the Rajput princess) were regarded as lower in caste status compared to Marthanda Varma (Who is the son of Raghava Varma, a Samanta Kshatriya and the sister of Raja Rama Varma, a Samanthan Nair). Suresh.Varma.123 (talk) 05:53, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

mr kuttappan nair,i admire your audacity to question my grammatical skills when your spellings are anything but flawless(astraloid,discussin,spellings from Oxford Thesaurus eh?).The main lineages of nairs as evidently pointed out by Vivwiki are eastern european and mediterranean(read scythian) according to whatever genetic studies which have been conducted.secondly your comparison between Kadammanitta Ramakrishnan and shashi tharoor on the basis on their physical attributes is more absurd than the 'grand unification theory'.what is being said on this talk page(go through the archives) is that Nairs are mainly an indo scythian people with some being bi-racial and not all as you would like me to believe.These Nairs might have minor mixing of blood with the defeated clans mostly probably the Velirs(the highest of the vellalas) or as some sources point out the cheras,a dravidian people,from whom Kadammanitta Ramakrishnan might have acquired his australoid feautures.The australoid genes are anyways more dominant than the caucasian ones,therefore even minor blood mixing can lead to such drastic changes ,Kadammanitta Ramakrishnan appears biracial to me and not a pure blooded australoid.To explain the dominant gene effect of the negroid-australoid genes i would like to cite an example of german supermodel heidi klum(caucasian blue eyed blonde) and her negroid husband Seal(a pure blooded mandinka person).Their children have not aquired any of the feautures of their blonde mother.they look very much negroid which explains why minor blood mixing has long term effects.The nairs definately are not an aboriginal people who mixed with other races.If that was the case you would never get a shashi tharoor because of the dominant negroid gene effect.Linguisticgeek (talk) 19:11, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Mr kuttappan your are mixing fiction(Examples are aplenty in MT's masterpieces and in bad literature from guys like Unnikrishnan Puthoor) with facts.There are plenty of Nairs clans which don't intermarry(sambandham) with the nambudiris.Infact the Nairs having nambudiri paternal ancestry are far less when compared to pure blooded nairs.Secondly the bunts don't intermarry with brahmins at all.How would u explain aishwarya rai inheriting her blue-green eyes.Nair practices of Matrilineality,polyandry,serpent worship are essentially non-dravidian scythian practices.namboodiris aren't exactly aryan either(e.m.s.namboodiripad an example).The Namboodiris in Payannur practice matrilineality which many say is proof that nambudiris might be scythians elevated to brahminhood.And also please refrain from namboodiri bashing,the page is not meant to do that.Also your basics regarding anthrophology are pretty much wrong.Linguisticgeek (talk) 04:03, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

You are making a fool of yourself by replying to this Kuttappan guy. He is not a Nair, but member of a community which is famous for "Bhoshku parahil". He operates under close to a dozen sock puppets like sn nair, kuttappan nair, sanal nair, sanalkumar nair.etc. He is trying to divert attention from serious discussions here. Just ignore the idiot and concentrate on the topic, since we haven't invented medicine for 3 things (AIDS, baldness and jealousy). Suresh.Varma.123 (talk) 05:42, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Let us face the facts. Nairs are a cross breed of the aboriginals of Kerala with people, whoever they are, that came from across the borders. As is the case throughout history, security and status also implied fights for posession of wealth and beautiful women. Several permutations and combinations resulted, with perpetual struggles between people in power with those who were disposessed. There's little point in the vending of cock and bull stories about the origins. A more interesting approach would be the genetic mapping of individuals and groups in Kerala, which act, if pursued honestly, can resolve several disputes about who the Nairs are, and what exactly is their relationship to people from other parts of India. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.151.62.7 (talk) 06:32, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

To unknown ip 86.151.62.7 please create an account before writing nonsense like nair are a cross breed of the aboriginals of kerala.nairs are not indigenous to kerala thats what most anthrophologists say.most nair clans and all bunt clans have scythian origins thats what gentic mapping says to be honest.Linguisticgeek (talk) 09:16, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

I believe Linguisticgeek should do well to purchase a copy of 'High School English Grammer' by Wren & Martin. That apart, I would like to know his opinion on the diversity of racial types found among the Nairs. Kadammanitta Ramakrishnan, with his rugged , negroid-astraloid features was nevertheless from one of the families near Pathanamthitta that supplied Nair soldiers to the Raja of Thekkumkoor and Vadakkumkoor, and later to the principality of Travancore for generations on end. (Hope our Linguistics expert has come across Padayani Pattu , the ritualistic Ballads sung in the Bhadrakali Temples of Kadavathur, Kdammanitta and nearby.**)Well, to come to the point, is there any similiarity in physical appearance or other typical genetic traits between Kadammanitta and the suave Sasi Tharoor, who is also a Nair? A keen observer can cite thousands of such examples. Genetic diversity is the strength of the Nair community, and it will therefore be absurd to attempt a 'grand unification theory' while discussin the ethnic roots of Nairs. (**While on the subject, cineactor Mohanlal's maternal ancestors are from somewhere nearby, in Malayalapuzha, Pathanamthitta Dist.)Kuttappan Nair (talk) 16:17, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Honestly, I am not convinced. Dark skin and australoid features are quite common among Nairs in Travancore-possibily because they were less subservient to Nambuthiri Brahmins.( Legend has it that the Nambuthiri incursions did not stretch south of Chengannur.) So, there were far fewer cases of hapless Nair women working as servants in the Mana or Illam being impregnated by licentious Nambuthiri men, and giving birth to founders of Tharavads whose descendants boast of their aristocratic origins. (Examples are aplenty in MT's masterpieces and in bad literature from guys like Unnikrishnan Puthoor.)As far as I undestand inheritance of genes do not follow any regular pattern. You may inherit your eyes from an ancestor of your father, who had lived seven centuries ago, whereas the fingers on your palm may be replicas of your great grand mother on the maternal line.Nairs are essentially Dravidians. There's no denying that.Kuttappan Nair (talk) 20:48, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Mr. Kuttappan, if you want to divert the topic, then plz start a new thread. Suresh.Varma.123 (talk) 05:56, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Not surprised why Kuttappan is not convinced, some 'kuttappans' are like that they act sleeping, no need to wake them up. No one is denying the fact that Nairs have mixed with certain Dravidian clans like vellalas and maravas mostly in the kanyakumari and other border districts. The theory that Nairs are dravidian and only the ones who mixed with Namboothiris looks aryan is absolutely rubbish. The Namboothiri population is not even 1% of kerala while Nairs are around 15%. Even today there are darker and shorter people among Namboothiris than among Nairs. Generally people in kerala looks dark thanks to the equatorial climate, even the jews, parsis and gujarathis settled in Kerala, who had no mixing up, look dark. A serious observer should go by the genetic studies to determine the origin of races rather than looking at random samples of skin colour and physical features. The studies that have been done so far on Nairs all points to a indo-scythian origin. Here's the excerpts from one of the most reliable source on this subject..

..Dopamine gene theory – Valeries Legrand – She has been on the subject of the Nairs of Kerala for the last one decade and hence claims to be an authority on the same. The origins of the Nairs are shrouded in mystery, but from most ancient accounts, cultures and customs, it can be safely inferred that the Nairs are Scythian of descent. The fact that recent tests indicate presence of the warrior gene 'dopamine' in them as in case of other Scythians attests to this fact. As a race they are distinct from the prevailing Aryan or Dravidian races of India...

It is not that difficult to observe that Nairs are a different race from the rest of the dravidian s.indian population. Nairs, Bunts and Coorgis look totally different along with certain brahmin sects. While the connection between Nairs and Bunts and their common origin is well established, the origin of Coorgies remain a mystery.

On aryans and scythians, apart from the fact that the indo-aryans being vedic people, there could hardly be any differences since both these people have originated from indo-iranian tribes. Of course, the aryans considered scythians as 'degraded' barbaric warriors though ethnically they both might be the same. The aryans were mostly brahmins and the kshathriyas were scythians though few of the scythian tribes were converted to the vedic fold as in the case of samanta kshatriya. The rift could have existed even those days which resulted in Budha who was a scythian founding a new religion outside of the vedic dogma. There is no source to prove that meenachil karthas were of aryan origin. However, they had certain rituals which were more 'aryan' like. They never had any shaivic names. Most of them were named 'Bhaskara', 'Ravi', 'kerala' etc with 'Damodara simhar ' as their title. Anyway the lack of sacred thread give credence to the fact that they were not considered aryans (or not sure whether this ritual got discontinued as a result of their plight and long years of exile due to the genocide.Keraleeyan

1)I thought Marathas were Scytho-Dravidians.

(2)Coming to the topic of Nairs & Rajputs, it must be remembered that Rajput men and women did n't ever have to work as servants of Brahmins. It was the other way round. The Kings- who were also defendants of the Hindu faith- would patronise Brahmins, and shower gifts on the meritorious sycophants among them.For example, Kalidaasan, Vararuchi, Bhavabhuti, Varahamihiran..were all Brahmin celebrities adorning the court of King Bhoja of Ujjain. Marthanda Varma brought in a sinister parallel to this when he started the practice of inviting paradeshi Brahmins from neighbouring Tamilnadu and Karnataka for the administration of Travancore. (Nambuthiris were unheard of, in Venadu then!)The obvious intent was the weakening of Nair Supremacy in south Travancore, which had proved too much of an ordeal for the Crown Prince to overcome, since the Nair Chieftains (Ettuveetil Pillamaar with Ettarayogam Pottimaar as accomplices)had conspired against him. (Also, I do not subscribe to the theory that Rama Varma had married a princess from Kosala. Krishnathamma, the King's consort, was possibly a beautiful Vellala girl.) To come to the point, the most conspicuos aspect of Marthanda Varma 's vengeful act(s), was the Kshatriya's choice of Brahmins in lieu of non-Kshatriyas and non-Brahmins.( It's more obvious in the manner in which the rebels were punished. Ettuveetil Pillamaar were hanged, and their womenfolk were handed over to fishermen. On the other hand, Ettarayogam Pottimaar, who were Tulu Brahmins, could escape with a mere exile! Marthandan was afraid of 'Brahmahatya Papam')

(3)I guess it was Marthanda Varma who brought in the ritual of 'Murajapam' at the Padmanabha Swamy Temple in Trivandrum, an occassion for Nambuthiri Brahmins from the length and breadth of Kerala to assemble there, and collect gifts from the King!The incursion of Nambuthiris to South Travancore must have started then, along with the custom of Sambandham!

(4)The point that I am trying to make, through citation of these apparently irrelevant instances, is that the Nairs of Kerala have an identity that is distinct from the 'Kshatriya'. We are the descendants of a race that lived and died by the sword, regularly exploited by the scheming Kings and priests.We do not need the 'label' of Kshatriya. As the late M P Narayana Pillai used to declare, Nair is not just another caste. Nairs constitute a separate religion.Kuttappan Nair (talk) 07:19, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Everyone knows that you (i.e you along with your sock accounts) are having too much problem with the Kshatriya status of Nairs. The majority of the Brahmins attended the murajapam were Tulu and Tamil speaking Brahmins and nambuthiri presencein Travancore has been noted for the last one millenium or so. Also, princess Abhirami was a Rajput according to the Travancore State Manual. Just stop your rubbish. Chandrakantha.Mannadiar (talk) 10:01, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

C'mmon my dear! Do not be so womanish. I shall be absolutely delighted if someone accords me Kshatriya status so that I start making love officially to accomplished Royal ladies. Nairs will start recording then their caste as Kshatriya in School Records and elsewhere. They will join the Kshatriya Samajam and start attending meetings regularly. Nairs of Tripunithura can observe proceedings during the annual festival, from pavillions reserved exclusively for members of the Royal family.These are all extremely delectable enjoyments, and I am no fool to reject these. Unfortunately, I have not yet got the Royal charter, not as long as the existing Kshatriyas decide otherwise, I figure. So , Pooh-Pooh. I do not care two pence for Kshatriyahood. I have pride in being a Nair, and I would not waste my time finding out whether you have classified me as a Vaisya or a Sudra or a Kshatriya. I believe 'Nair' is beyond all such silly classification. I do not know whether I can do much about it,if you are not impressed!

Let's consider the following incidents.

(1) A few years ago a girl called Lekha Varma was adopted by the Travancore Royal Family as heiress. Obviously,the reason, for the adoption was that there were no heiresses. Did it mean that 'Royal Highness' Uthradam Tirunal had n't any nieces? Hardly true. He indeed had one, since Pooyam Tirunaal (Uthradam's sister) had a daughter, Lakshmi. Obviously Lakshmi was overlooked. The reason for her disqualification was that she had chosen to marry Monu Nalappat, son of Late Madhavikutti alias Kamaladas.Despite all the pretensions of belonging to the Nalappad family, Monu is n't considered a Kshatriya, and his relationship with Lakshmi 's not recognised except to the extent of leaving her bereft of her status as heiress to Travancore Royal family.

(2) Since I do not wish to hurt individuals if possible, let me limit myself to an oblique reference. There's a certain Radio Mart near Pallimukku Jn. in Ernakulam the owner of which is a Nair from Alleppy.He was to shorten his name later on, to remove all traces of being a Nair. That was after he married the daughter of a Kshatriya gentleman(monogamous, fortunately) who was eventually elevated to the status of 'Valiyathampuran' of Kochi.So, though our friend's mother-in-law belonged to a Nair family in Central Travancore, he was soon strutting about as His Highness's son-in-law.I attended wedding of one of his children- incidentally , the bridegroom was a Mannadiar- way back in the late eighties, and was surprised to find that neither 'His Highness' nor the Royal guests from Tripunitura sat down with the others for the feast! Notions of ritual purity, the substratum of all caste and creed, predominated. 'His Highness' was to enjoy his meal later on, in the comfort of his home (Palace!), though surrounded by his Nair offsprings and their families.(He would not do so in public!)

My dear friends, do not court indignity, if you can.Assert yourself and do not bring odium on your kin , by begging for acceptance as Kshatriya and Brahmana. If the Varmas do not recognise you as one of them, you must train your sights at something higher, rather than accepting a subordinate role willingly.Do not play up to anyone's vanity. You do not have to. Please realise that.Kuttappan Nair (talk) 12:02, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Kuttappan nair sock puppet allegations by his illegitimate sons

To suresh varma,anand nair and other sincere contributors

after reading this cock and bull story from kuttappan nair,i have apprehensions that he is a sock puppet of famed anti-nair vandal Sanam or is one of those anti-nair communists who regularly trawl this page.If anyone thinks the same then please start the sock puppet investigations.i am too busy to edit wikipedia off late.Thank you.Linguisticgeek (talk) 13:23, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

These are some of his suspected socks -

• User Kuttappan
• User Pushpangadan
• User SN
• User Oomban

- Chandrakantha.Mannadiar (talk) 14:36, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

I had contributed to the Wikipedia article on Nairs during 2006-2008 and was vociferous in my insistence that Nairs should be classed as 'Kshatriya' and not as 'Savarna Sudra' as a few others were arguing. (I had used numerous sock poppets, and Chandrakant Mannadiar or whatever is not smart enough to identify even one of these!) And, that's about all. Nairs are Kshatriyas because they were soldiers. (What else is Kshatriya?) How many of you know about Armies and life in the Army? It is a different situation altogether, when we bring down Kshatriyahood to the level of the mundane. I was absolutely disgusted to see postings in succession, citing one source after another, in testimony to Nairs being Rajputs.. Nairs being Huns. Baah! I am a Nair and I am proud of my legacy as one, and I would n't compromise my dignity by clamouring for equality in caste status with people whom I should have scant regard for, since it is my belief that Nairs should have been ruling Kerala and not the worthless successors to Marthanda Varma and Ramayyan Dalawa! Kuttappan Nair (talk) 18:47, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

I think this chap, Kuttapan Nair is going overboard!!!... none of us ever made claims to nairs being rajputs.... we had only mentioned that some lineages have rajput blood( minachil karthas).and marital connections with rajput princesses( princess abhirami) and the assi,ilation of foreign kshatriyas into the samantha fold. also about the hun theory - it is by an author called chandra chakraborty - if you read his book... you will be amused at most of his theories about the origins of indian castes and communities, but nevertheless he has written a book and hence it can be quoted!.... my purpose was just to highlight the various views held by authors and anthropologists.Vivwiki (talk) 02:42, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

I wish our contributors could exercise a certain rigour and formality in their postings, at least when they make a direct personal reference.It may be too much to expect,perhaps,from people who are eager to obliterate their less glamourous roots. Well, from the looks of it, this is not the party to join for a Brigadier (Retd.) from the Indian Army who saw action in the Western Front ,and was decorated, as a young Second Lieutenant, in 1971.I haveto write under assumed names, and I am not used to fighting mere phantoms.Kuttappan Nair (talk) 09:25, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

So kuttappan nair admits he uses sock puppets.I think no one should reply to his posts anymore.Atleast i won't do, be cause I feel shy at the very thought of replying to my biological father.Linguisticgeek (talk) 06:18, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Seeking consensus on using this image

Image:Nair couples 04565400.jpg - Nair couple from 20 century

• Image

• This historical image was uploaded on the commons way back in 2009 showing a nair couple in mundu.I believe the image should be used on the main article.i am seeking consensus.those who agree on the use of this image in the main article,please vote below by typing down Agree followed by your sign.those who do not agree,type Do not agree followed by your sign.Thank you.Linguisticgeek (talk) 05:46, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

some more info the image was taken by nicolas bros and he writes that Nairs are a High caste community here

• Do not agree - This image was extensively used for POV pushing against Nairs in the past. This image neither represents the common attire prevalent amongst Nairs during the 20th century, nor it represents any thing related to the Nair community at all. Axxn (talk) 06:26, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
• Do not agree - As per above. Suresh.Varma.123 (talk) 15:35, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
• Do not agree- Since both the man and the woman would have had an upavasthram (thorthu-towel) which was slung across the shoulder (the predecessor of the mundum-veshti). Also the hair style of the woman is not a neat bun on top of the head as per tradition. Essentially, I doubt whether the photographer was certain of the Nair caste, and even if they were Nairs, they are not traditionally attired. Here are traditional dresses from the same site:
• http://sirismm.si.edu/naa/97/asia/04597200.jpg- Label says "Nayar", note the neat hair bun, much more distinct than the previous photo, and the practice of wearing an upavasthram across the torso.
• http://sirismm.si.edu/naa/97/asia/04596800.jpg- Label says they are "Irava" (Ezhava?) although their dress looks very similar to that of Nairs

124.180.116.160 (talk) 23:21, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Ok since majority are against the use of this image,the image won't be used.I sought consensus because of the upper body nudity.But i don't think the author was confused about the nairs.he specifically writes nair( high caste).I never thought the image could be used for POV.But yes since this page is a regular target of vandals,better not use this image and yes agreed this isn't the traditional dress but then if i remember correctly then Nair women and men used to wear the upper clothing only when they ventured outside their homes.upper clothing was considered a mark of high status.i guess the author took the image inside the house.anyways all sincere contributors please find images of Nairs in traditional attire from same era.i am searching as well in the archives.Thank you.Linguisticgeek (talk) 06:20, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Brahmakshatriya

Should we note the Brahmakshatriya status? (Since they had a Brahmin father and Nair mother?) It is worth bringing up in the article, although due to matrilinearity, they were not classed as "Brahmakshatriyas". Regardless, the genetic make up of Nairs would be very similar to that of Nambudiri Brahmins, due to the common nature of Sambandham.124.180.116.160 (talk) 23:30, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

i don't think it is required Nairs with nambudiri paternal ancestry is marginal.besides Nair clans which don't have sambandham with nambudiris are far more when compared to those who do,And those nairs who do have nambudiri ancestors don't claim this status at all.so this Brahmakshatriya thing would be original research.Nagavanshi kshatriya is the most apt and fitting description.Linguisticgeek (talk) 06:36, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

alas!....the very term kshatriya is to be conferred by brahmins, who have a hegemony on deciding hierarchy in the indian caste system....the only true vedic kshatriyas are the khatris and aroras of punjab, who were spared by parashurama( that is an interesting story by itself...)rajputs are non vedic kshatriyas who got the kshatriya status just because they favoured brahmins...however nairs are not alone , jats, kodavas, bunts, marathas are all races with a martial past who are not dvija kshatriyas... i guess ' vratya" kshtriyas would be better for us.Vivwiki (talk) 15:15, 27 April 2010 (UTC)