Talk:John Edwards

Article could use some work

Little or no mention of any of his many scandals. This is more a pro-Edwards political ad rather than a encyclopedia entry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.141.168.30 (talk) 04:13, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

What scandals would those be, that are covered by multiple reliable sources? Do you have sources to provide? Lawrence Cohen 14:33, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Investing in predatory lending, voting for the Iraq war, charging $55000 to give a speech poverty, campaigning on two Americas while getting $400 haircuts, only highlights of his career as a trial lawyer appear on the page, his vote to support the patriot act is barely mentioned, ect . All the questionable issues surrounding Edwards are short and lacking detail, followed by a defense of Edwards. Negatives should not be mentioned and then followed up with a staunch defense of the person of question. The page reads like a political ad. I understand many of the editors on this page are Edwards supporters, but the constant crusades to keep any 'bad news' about the guy off wikipedia is inappropriate. Look at the other candidates pages, they allow much more negative information. There are plenty of reliable sources which have documented Mr.Edwards short comings, however to put together a impartial set of criticism is pointless when the page will be instantly vandalized by John Edwards supporters. —Preceding unsigned comment added by talk (talk • contribs)

Try looking at John Edwards presidential campaign, 2008 for many of the things you mention such as haircuts, Iraq war vote (also covered in this article as well as the subarticle on political positions), Fortress group (also covered in this main article) - and you didn't mention the anti-Catholic bloggers, "bumper sticker" and expensive house and maybe some others - but the appropriate articles do. We cover a wide expanse of his legal career - what would you have us add to that already long section? He voted for the Patriot Act and we say so - what does "barely mentioned" mean, and what more is there to say? Your tired assumption that "many of the editors on this page are Edwards supporters" isn't supported by any evidence, and is rather insulting to boot. And some of us edit many politicians' articles, across party lines. The vandalism that we deal with, by the way, tends to come from people who think adding "Breck girl" to the page is a valid edit. But I'm sure you, being fair-minded and neutral, wouldn't approve of that either. As Lawrence said, if you have reliably sourced scandals that we've missed, please tell us and provide citations. Tvoz |talk 05:08, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Tvoz, your rant is highly inappropriate. Never did I mention anything to do with some blogger that worked for his campaign or a supposed affair reported by the Enquirer. Obviously you take any criticism of Mr.Edwards very personally. I think you might want to take a more unbiased, rational attitude when discussing page content on wiki. Yes, you are correct, there are short (usually a few words) informational portions of the page about things you may consider to be less than desirable actions by Mr.Edwards. However, there is always a biased counter argument to any portion I have before mentioned. The issue here is consistency in wiki page content. Many of the other biographies on wiki may not have the level of 'passionate' editors sifting out information which may show the biographical subject in a less than flattering light. Certain information about this individual, even though it may make you angry, is viable and appropriate. I am not suggesting adding hearsay or unfounded Enquirer stories in the John Edwards page. I do think that some facts related to the man should be expounded upon. I would be more than happy to add viable, accurate information to the page (with citation). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.141.168.30 (talk) 07:21, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the advice, but unfortunately, you missed my point which was that we do cover "scandals" when they are well-sourced - which is why I included the anti-Catholic bloggers as an example in my list of some of the negative things we talk about in these articles that you didn't mention. And you didn't respond to any of the points I made about other things that you claim we don't cover, you just characterized them as a "rant" - that's a personal attack, in my view. Criticize the content, not the contributors. You might also read some Wikipedia policy about neutrality and undue weight as well as how to handle biographies, since you appear to be new here. And to be clear: I don't take criticism of Edwards personally at all, I take your criticism of editors on these articles personally - because I am one of them and you attacked us. And I, as well as several of the other "regulars" here, also heavily edit Hillary Clinton, Obama, Giuliani, Ron Paul, Fred Thompson, Romney, and the others - I have an intimate knowledge of all of those and most of the rest of them, and you can rest assured, opponents of each of them make the same argument you're making here about bias, and no more validly. So if I appear angry it is because you were rather insulting to the editors who have worked hard here to write neutral and comprehensive articles in the face of people who come here and to the articles of other people who are running for office just to throw some mud on them. Now, if you'd like to share some reliably sourced criticisms that we've overlooked, please do so. You don't have to wait the four days - post it here on Talk. But do read WP:BLP first. Tvoz |talk 08:08, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Tboz, you are very welcome for the words of advice and I hope they can help with your future discussions and edits here at wikipedia . I will first respond to your accusations of a person attack. I merely stated an observation based on your spirited responses in the discussion portion of this article. I'm am sorry, but your intentions here do seem biased, that is not a person attack. Everyone, at times, can be biased even when trying to maintain objectivity. Hopefully we can work together to make this biography even better. I am not attacking you in any sense, I just feel the page is not neutral. I sincerely hope you can distinguish my criticism of the article from an attack on you. Oh, and I am new here. Thanks for the warm welcome :)

I do plan on editing the article once my four day wait period is over. I can assure you I am not here to trash Mr.Edwards' biography or any other article here at wikipedia. I have reviewed the NPOV and UNDUE policies here and agree with them whole heartedly. But hey, maybe someone will just come in here and delete all discussions of the article they disagree with. I changed the title of this portion of the discussion page to a more constructive context. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Recursive1298 (talk • contribs)

[unindent] No, actually you said "I understand many of the editors on this page are Edwards supporters, but the constant crusades to keep any 'bad news' about the guy off wikipedia is inappropriate" and "to put together a impartial set of criticism is pointless when the page will be instantly vandalized by John Edwards supporters" before I said anything in this section, so it was not at all based on anything I said, let alone my "spirited responses" here. You accused the editors of this page of bias, and repeated your accusation later on, and that is not acceptable. It is a personal attack. Once again, if there are reliably sourced items that you think should be here, tell us what they are. You are certainly free to edit the article after four days - I was merely offering that you didn't have to wait for that, but could post your sourced material here right now. And if you really want to work together with the people who have been conscientiously editing here, I'd suggest you stop including comments like maybe someone will just come in here and delete all discussions of the article they disagree with. Read WP:BLP - we take it seriously. Tvoz |talk 09:06, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

And thank you for changing the header in this section (which I didn't see until after I saved the above) - that's much better than your original. Tvoz |talk 09:14, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

I read the other comments on this article and made a observation. I stand by this observation and still believe there is bias involved in this article. Your claims of being personally attacked, while patronizing me, is fairly ironic. I saw your links to WP:BLP the first 2 times. I will certainly adhere to these standards as I am sure you and most other wikipedia editors make their best effort to do.Recursive1298 (talk) 09:28, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

I have no idea what you think is ironic about it - I called you on your attack of the editors. Our references to BLP and UNDUE are important, because that is at the crux of whether or not material should make it into a biography, so yes, I mentioned them several times as did other editors here and will likely do again. I'm sorry if you felt patronized (and glad that you changed your comments here and here to remove yours), but the fact is you never answered the replies to your content point, other than to repeat that you think there is bias - and yes, ascribing motives to the editors when you actually have no idea of what their motives are or who they support in the election is considered an attack. All you or anyone need to do is present reliably sourced criticisms that we haven't included in the appropriate section or sub-article, and the content will be evaluated fairly. But screaming "bias" without providing substance is an attack. I can also tell you, from a great deal of experience on Wikipedia, that there are a lot of people watching these articles, and bias in any direction isn't going to last long. Tvoz |talk 19:59, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

You were not attacked, please learn to distinguish between criticism of your work and a personal attack. This is my last reply to you on this subject of "you were attacked" as it is going nowhere. Also please refer to WP:Policy specifically Those who edit in good faith, are civil, seek consensus, and work towards the goal of creating a great encyclopedia should find a welcoming environment. I would ask you to refrain from harassment. Recursive1298 (talk) 23:54, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

meta talk

another user removed the discussion above regarding 'worst wiki pages' on the rationale that the discussion was a possible WP:BLP vio. the problem is, i see it as less so than the discussion above that, about the enquirer article. according to WP:BLP, "Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material — whether negative, positive, or just questionable — about living persons should be removed immediately and without discussion from Wikipedia articles, talk pages, user pages, and project space." (emphasis mine). so by that rationale, pretty much the entire talk page here should go, because it discusses poorly sourced info about a living person. i reverted the removal of just the 'worst wiki page' section. why? well, i'm not sure. i figured that removing only one wasn't right, since i think both should go, but - i'm not going to just meat-axe the whole page based on what is an ambiguous issue - is talking about the inappropriateness of un/poorly sourced info also inappropriate? so, i figured i'd toss it right into the mix here and at least get some feedback. (yeah, the above's a bit disjointed, sorry. ambiguous metadiscussion makes my brain hurt, particularly when i'm doing it). Anastrophe (talk) 08:10, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Hmm - there must have been an edit conflict because I thought I reinstated it - for pretty much the same reasons as you give - and to reply. So I agree with your revert - I think it's kind of borderline as to whether it all should go. Tvoz |talk 08:38, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Mandatory Aspects of Edwards' Health Care Plan

Lawrence Cohen was right in undoing the change I made to the description of Edwards' health care plan, because the citation didn't justify the change. I've re-added the claims that were deleted, this time adding citations that I'd added to Political positions of John Edwards. According to my reading of his campaign site and the ABC article, under his plan citizens would be required by law to purchase health care and to obtain regular medical checkups in a government-approved manner; and companies that don't provide health care will be required to pay into a federal system (ie. taxed). Is this a fair set of statements? -Kris Schnee (talk) 09:06, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

2008 Iowa Caucus results

I think the Iowa caucus results on the article page (which I can't edit) should be listed to 2 decimal points: in actuality, Edwards got 29.75% while Clinton got 29.45%, a difference of .28%. The media seems to have failed to notice that the difference is miniscule (and even a 1% difference would really be a non-difference). At least wikipedia could get it right if this were changed! See offical Iowa results at http://www.iowacaucusresults.com/. This is just yet another example of the media manipulating facts to make a better story - what kind of a headline would "Edwards beats Clinton by .28%" be? For historical purposes, I think wikipedia should list to 2 decimals when the difference is so small.Zzalzzal (talk) 06:01, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Evidence that the 2004 election was stolen

Bob Fitrakis and Harvey Wasserman of www.freepress.org argue that a GAO report confirms that the presidential election was stolen for Bush. The authors state that the sworn statements and affidavits of numerous voters support the fact that such vote switching did occur, and that the switches benefited George W. Bush, essentially giving him the election. Fitrakis and Wasserman claim that, along with dozens of examples of large-scale voter disenfranchisement and "statistical impossibilities," including the Ohio exit poll disparity, the GAO report demonstrates that election fraud did occur in 2004. [1]

In February 2006, BlackBoxVoting.org reported that there were over 100,000 data irregularities in the touch-screen voting machines used in Palm Beach County, including votes recorded in the system several days prior to actual voting. [2] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.101.68.13 (talk) 16:16, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

What does any of that have to do with John Edwards, and why have you put it here? -Kris Schnee (talk) 04:44, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Presumably the point is that John Edwards, the Democratic Vice Presidential candidate in 2004, had his election stolen from him. So the poster probably is suggesting that this information be included in the 2004 election section. It's certainly not irrelevant to his bio, but not clear that it's reliable enough or appropriate for this article rather than the one on the 2004 election. Tvoz |talk 05:06, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Redirect from Edwards

If we should follow the path from Obama, the article Edwards should point directly to this. Then the current Edwards should be moved to Edwards (disambiguation). Just look at the history of Obama if you wonder what I'm saying: [3] Greswik (talk) 16:35, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

John Edwards is not nearly as well known as Barack Obama and the pure number of people with the last name of Edwards makes it unclear if someone typing in Edwards is looking for John Edwards, or someone else with the last name of Edwards. Barack Obama just lucked out and has an uncommon last name.--Bobblehead ^(rants) 19:31, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah I visited obama's page earlier. Edwards is not nearly as synonymous with the name john edwards, as is Obama and the word Obama. Sentriclecub (talk) 12:42, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Edwards

It should be worded that he was "suspending" his campaign, not ending it as those were his exact words. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.181.89.206 (talk) 04:44, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Failed GA review

1. Prose- Fail. Includes Wikipedia:Words to avoid, lead section might need to include more detail (like poverty as signature issue) and background (Bill Clinton good example of intro, though this intro probably shouldn't be that long). Some sections are too short and need to be expanded and merged for style. There are a few short paragraphs, which is frowned on. Lists might be more graphically exciting or integrated into article. See Wikipedia:Embedded list for ideas or use Hillary Clinton election grids at the bottom for examples. What lists are included or not included is often debated, by these are some potential ways to improve. Wikipedia:Words to avoid need to be removed.

2. Verifiable- Fail. Some areas lack sources all together. There are even a few references needed and original research tags that need to be fixed, but areas where there is whole paragraphs without citations need to be addressed too.

3. Coverage- Fail- The coverage concerning Edwards role in the general election 2004 race is limited. The main article the section links too isn't much better. Some more discussion of why Edwards was chosen, his debate with President Cheney, talk of Edwards Kerry split. Also, no talk in the 2008 campaign section about Kerry endorsement or the debates. It's a summary, but the high points in the race still need to be covered. No talk of Ann Coulter exchange or expensive haircuts?

4. Neutral- Fail. Only positive information is presented about Edwards. He did have some critics and none of it is mentioned here. Also, problems with NPOV#Let_the_facts_speak_for_themselves.

5. Stable- Check 6. Images- Check. Good images.

I hope this review is not discouraging, but provides for useful feedback to improve this article. Only a very few article on wikipedia meet good article or featured article status. You are always welcome to message my talk page with questions. Good luck!User:calbear22 (talk) 08:37, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Loonymonkey Edits in "Legal Career"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Loonymonkey claims that this isn't "notable" so he deleted it: Edwards' performance during the trial has been criticized, on the grounds that Edwards manufactured a discovery dispute in order to persuade the Judge to issue rulings in Edwards' favor, that Edwards asked misleading questions of Sta-Rite's expertwitness in order to mislead the jury, and made an highly prejudicial closing argument by referencing the death of his son.

The whole "Legal Career" section of this article is flowing with praise for Edwards and there is no opposing viewpoint. I think it provides needed balance to the "Legal Career" section.--Davidwiz (talk) 18:49, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Endorsement

This statement: "Edwards announced on March 22, 2008 that he would not endorse either Democrat canidate." is not true. He did not announce anything. The citation given in the edit summary is a dead link. Please stop adding incorrect information with bogus citation. Tvoz |talk 07:32, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Jet Skis/ Colbert Report appearance

I came accross the following quote under the post senate activities section that raised an eyebrow: "On 2008-04-17 John Edwards appeared on The Colbert Report at the Pennsylvania Primary 2008 coverage. John Edwards did his own section of 'The Word' called 'EdWORDS'. Edwards tried to sell his support to one of the democratic candidates, Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama, by "selling himself out" for a pair of Kawasaki jet-skis." I watched this particular episode (as I watch every Colbert Report episode), and the notion that he would sell his support for a pair of jetskis was obviously a joke; rather he used the opportunity to state that he would endorse whichever candidate supported the strongest anti-poverty initiatives. --Jml4000 (talk) 07:27, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Of course it was a joke, and it's been removed from the article. Tvoz |talk 02:12, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Served alongside...

In the infobox and succession boxes shouldn't be mentioned who he served alongside as U.S. Senator (Elizabeth Dole?)

Tabloid scandal accusations

As many are aware, Edwards has been accused of scandalous actions by a supermarket tabloid. As per Wikipedia's policy regarding biographies of living persons, including information about the tabloids claims is inappropriate at this time because the tabloid does not qualify as a reliable source and current reports in more reputable news sources do not confirm the claims, only reporting the fact the tabloid has published claims about Edward's actions. The same policy that prevents inclusion of the accusations within the article also prevent details from being included on this talk page.

If the mainstream media picks up the story and verifies the claims of the story, not just reporting that the tabloid has made certain claims, then inclusion of this accusations will be appropriate. --Allen3 ^talk 16:14, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Is there a list on Wikipedia of which mainstream media outlets are considered 'reliable' and which media outlets are considered 'tabloid', or is it up to individual users interpretations? Is USA Today 'tabloid'? Is the Drudge Report 'reliable' or 'tabloid' in its individual articles? Is Wikipedai 'tabloid' or 'reliable'? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.232.227.99 (talk) 19:02, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

There is no list of good (nor bad?) sources. However, while the Enquirer's use of anonymous, and paid sources diminishes their wiki-reliability, we should take into account that there is actual first hand reporting on this story. The Enquirer may be "tabloid trash" but they are not always wrong - sometimes they have broken real news stories. On the other hand it is wikipedia policy that exceptional claims require exceptional sources, in particular there should be more than one primary source. So everyone that is trying to add this material should hold off for a while: this "breaking story" is not fully "broken", and as such doesn't belong in an encyclopedia (yet). DiggyG (talk) 19:25, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

We are an encyclopedia, not a news outlet. WP:BLP clearly and unequivocably states:

Biographies of living persons (BLPs) must be written conservatively, with regard for the subject's privacy. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid; it is not our job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives. An important rule of thumb when writing biographical material about living persons is "do no harm".

— WP:BLP

Considering that these accusations: (1a) are from a tabloid source that (1b) pays it sources and (1c) often makes false claims; (2) are extraordinary in nature; (3) do not list the accuser; and (4) most definitely does irreparable harm to a politician's career, they are absolutely inappropriate for Wikipedia anywhere... talk pages, articles, or anywhere else. I'm not usually a fan of trimming information via WP:BLP, but this is exactly the type of situation WP:BLP guarantees protection against. /Blaxthos ( t / c ) 21:18, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

In response to point (2): The claim is not "extaordinary. It is the kind of claim made often, and often proven true. In response to points (1b) and (3): there is no "accuser," but there are named witnesses; the only "paid" sources used by the National Enquiere in this case are the paper's own reporters; there are no anonymous sources.

Furthermore, as of tonight, the story is being carried by the Los Angeles Times, Independent (UK), Times (of London, UK), Hartford (CT) Courant, FOXNEws, Philadelphia Inquirer, New York Magazine, etc. Here is an important point about the story, from the Hartford Courant coverage:

"Edwards later issued a brief statement criticizing the tabloids. He didn't address the love child story, though it was the right time to deny it if it isn't true. Whether it's true or not, his behavior was bizarre for a potential attorney general."

Now, is THAT notable? I think so. But if not, at what point -- after how many "reliable" papers take up the story? -- will Wikipedia deem it notable?

64.142.90.33 (talk) 05:42, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Now there is proof.

So, when do all of you who claimed the National Enquirer's story about JE was a lie apologize? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.27.9.20 (talk • contribs) 16:10, July 25, 2008 (UTC)

If you read what has been said, no one has said that the Enquirer story is a lie only that the Enquirer does not qualify as a reliable source and that adding the claims of the story at this time is a violation of Wikipedia's policy on biographies of living persons. Do you have any reliable sources to substantiate the claims made by the national Enquirer? --Allen3 ^talk 16:39, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

While I agree that the NE is not a Reliable Source, the notability of what the NE is saying has been picked up by several other Reliable Sources like the Washington Post, Slate and the LA Times. And it would seem that now we have confirmation of the details, in part, from Fox News [4]. CENSEI (talk) 16:55, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I'd say that the Beverly Hilton security guard that found him cowering in a basement bathroom is a pretty reliable source. I imagine the video and/or pictures will be forthcoming. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,391426,00.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.143.146.229 (talk) 17:22, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Evidence that he was in the hotel avoiding tabloid reporters, possibly but not evidence of anything else. Please sign your posts by appending four tildes -- the curly character on the top left hand corner of your keyboard. Thanks! ∴ Therefore | talk 17:26, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

That looks like a good source to me. Also see this article in Slate. It definitely seems appropriate to cover the allegations as just that -- notable allegations. Obviously the article should not present the allegations as true just because the NE says so. PubliusFL (talk) 17:29, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I think we should wait to put this in. Wikipedia is not news. Let's wait and see if this story has any long term importance. There really isn't a need to cover every single controversy as they crop up for major figures like Edwards all the time. --Leivick (talk) 17:38, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

That’s not the standard as it is applied to other biographies. CENSEI (talk) 17:46, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Of course it is. Find an article that relies on a non-reliable source (say, the National Enqurier) as its only source and it should be removed. Be patient! If this is covered in the mainstream press extensively (not just coverage about the NE article but actual confirmation), it will be included. ∴ Therefore | talk 18:10, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

To PubliusFL: To include allegations relying on only the National Enqurier with evidence from Fox that he was at the hotel (which confirms nothing else) on such an obvious red flag raising item such as this requires "extraordinary sources". Please read all the above comments re: biographies of living people and in fact read that policy itself to hone up on the criteria for inclusion. ∴ Therefore | talk 17:43, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

A number of other reliable sources have weighed in on this, and it is them that makes it notable, not the NE. CENSEI (talk) 17:46, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Allen3 already addressed your concerns here. ∴ Therefore | talk 18:04, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Right. Like WP:BLP says, "If an allegation or incident is notable, relevant, and well-documented by reliable published sources, it belongs in the article — even if it's negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it." Also, in response to Mr. Leivick, this story has been around (and covered by the mainstream press) for the better part of a year now. Here is an ABC News/AP article from last October. I wouldn't have supported covering it during the initial flurry of stories last year, for the same reason Mr. Leivick urges, but it now appears that this story has some staying power. PubliusFL (talk) 18:02, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

You are correct. And when it is "well-documented" by reliable published sources (National Enquirer is not an RS so currently we have a single source that provides evidence that he was at the hotel), then it is appropriate for inclusion. ∴ Therefore | talk 18:07, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

This certainly raises WP:BLP violation issues - there is only vague tabloid speculation, including a specific refutation of the claim by a source other than Edwards; indeed the Slate piece is actually saying that this story has not received reliable source coverage. So the only thing we have confirmed in a somewhat acceptable (although clearly biased) source is that a Presidential candidate was avoiding tabloid reporters. To include that in this general biography of a person's whole life and career would raise serious undue weight issues as it is hardly even newsworthy, let alone encyclopedic. This is a wait and see. Tvoz/talk 18:41, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

(undent) I agree with waiting a few days. I have no doubt the story will play out further in the media, let's wait for a little stability and some really good sources before including. Kelly ^hi! 19:21, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, we have a notoriously unreliable source making an extraordinary claim. The one security guard who "confirms" the story admits he did not recognize the Senator until later, coupled with the National Enquirer's reputation for paying for stories, is questionable. The Slate.com story, as others note, points out that this is not reliably sourced. FoxNews.com, bias in hand, has only pointed out the claim made by the Enquirer. As Kelly says, this needs some excellent sourcing and stability before we can consider adding it to a BLP. /Blaxthos ( t / c ) 21:37, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Are you suggesting that a gaggle of reporters was chasing a guy who kind of looks like Edwards, but wasn't Edwards? Why would anyone who isn't a politics junkie be expected to instantly recognize Edwards? The guard's story is good enough. (Not good enough to add this thing to the article mind you, but good enough to call it reliable when the time comes to add this whole story to the article.) Also, you're going to have to use the Enquirer as a source if/when they publish photos or video and other news people pick up on the story. They are not inherently unreliable. DiggyG (talk) 03:38, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

No, I don't believe anyone is suggesting that. It is true that some of the stories the NE prints turn out to be accurate and, in fact, break a story that makes national news. For instance, it broke the Rush Limbaugh prescription drug story. Note on that page that though NE was credited with breaking the story, it is not used as one of the sources. Why? Because by Wikipedia's standards, it is not a reliable source which requires the outlet to have a reputation for accuracy and fact-checking, neither of which the NE has. If this gets national coverage in mainstream media known for fact checking, then those news outlets will be used as the cited sources if at all -- not NE. ∴ Therefore | talk 03:50, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Reliability depends at least in part on the quality of the reporting. The Enquirer's accuracy, public reputation notwithstanding, is fairly good - the problem with citing them on wikipedia, at least from my point of view, is that they don't name their sources, and thus their stories are not usually verifiable. In this case they have first hand, eyewitness reporting. They are, and will be the primary source for this story, even after other news orgs pick up on it (if it turns out to be true...) because their reporters are part of the story. DiggyG (talk) 04:53, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Stop playing games. There are now 1000 google news hits for the story. We do not judge whether the allegation are reliable, only if they are notable. The allegations are in the LAT the NYT the WP FOX ABC AP Reuters. Notable. Now move on. Bonobonobo (talk) 12:36, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

If someone wants to write up a proposed addition to the article and post it to the talk page here, I think that would be OK. Posting straight to the article would probably end up being reverted, it's probably best to get consensus on the addition here first. Kelly ^hi! 12:40, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

It may be better to first post links to the sources you want to use and then as a community we could comment on their usefulness. Although the number of Google news hits may provide an extremely rough if crude indication of notability, the important thing is how many reliable sources report on the circumstances themselves. Metanews, in other words, news reports about the news reports (or lack thereof), are not reporting/confirming/investigating the facts of the story itself. In other words, at this point, the story has been reported by the National Enquirer which is not a reliable source. Fox News, a reliable source, confirms only one element of the story -- Edwards was at the hotel. Should we add in a section, "Edwards seen at hotel". Not newsworthy. Until the other elements of the story are independently confirmed, the story has no encyclopedic value. If this story has legs, it will eventually be covered.

To Bonobonobo: I can understand your frustration -- you are anxious to have this added. However, this isn't an issue of playing games. Wikipedia should and does take seriously the policies that govern biographies of living persons for both legal and ethical reasons. That is on top of other policies such as reliable sources and neutral point of view. I invite you to read up on those policies, post any questions you may have here (or at their pages). ∴ Therefore | talk 14:02, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm not anxious to have this added, I couldn't give a rats ass. I came here to read it and it wasn't here. It is being censored by you and others and I hate censorship, though I fully support wikipedia policies. Stop with the wikilawyreing bullshit and don't patronize me. Bonobonobo (talk) 14:14, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Ah, well then there is that, then. Good to hear you support Wikipedia polices (and understand them). ∴ Therefore | talk 14:17, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

I suspect two things are going on with the mainstream media in their coverage on this issue. One is that like it or not John Edwards just isn't relevant right now. That might change since he is a possible VP candidate and rumored to be part of an Obama cabinet. Until that happens he's still yesterdays news. The other thing going on is how the mainstream media fell hook line and sinker for a story on McCain having an affair a few months back. Then you read the story and shook your head because there was not one shred of evidence. They got burned on that one because McCain was extremely relevant and no one wanted to be last to report it. With Edwards not being relevant they're going to take their time on this one. Remember the scandal last year with Senator Craig? The newspaper in Boise had heard allegations for years about his behavior, but that's all they were, allegations. They weren't going to damage their reputation by publishing them when there wasn't one shred of proof. After the Senator got arrested for doing what was alledged all these years then suddenly these claims are way more credible. There may be nothing to this but then again it does kind of look like Principal Skinner trying to hide the fact his kitchen is on fire and burning down the house. When these allegations have firm solid legs to stand on I'm confident it will be included. Until then guys be patient this isn't a liberal conspiracy to protect his good name. If it was this whole thread would have been removed. I'm a conservative myself and agree with the desicions not to include this information at this time. Because I'm conservative I want more proof then he didn't want to talk to reporters. I was ambushed by the media once and had the camera pushed right up into my face to where I almost couldn't move. They intentionally do it to see if you'll self destruct. I smiled the whole time and it never made the news. I was a nobody and didn't implode, boring. Skywayman (talk) 16:04, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

/Blaxthos, You're an extremely choosy editor. You assume Fox News bias and make a call based on that. What about NY Times bias? The NY Times has been cited to consistently despite the FACT that it IS, in fact, liberally biased. What I'm going to enjoy about this controversy is seeing irrefutable proof presented to the likes of you, Gameamial, and Will BeBack and watching the three of you egomaniacs attempt to weasel your way out of being forced to include it in this Wikipedia entry. And I WILL enjoy watching it because it's only a matter of time before the infallible truth is made public and you three will have to eat crow. 128.118.230.17 (talk) 23:00, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Very bitter. Please read up on how to make reasoned critiques, show some common courtesy and not be a dick. Thanks! ∴ Therefore | cogito·sum 23:10, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Haha, call a spade a spade please, it's EXTREMELY bitter and dickish. Anyway, it's always important to see people who treat other people and their ideas/opinions with disregard and contempt and who also abuse power face a situation in which they are totally powerless to revert to their old tactics. This is one of the cases where the 3 liberals with power will have to appreciate the truth of the matter, instead of gaming the system through intimidation and abuse of power so their ideology is presented and discussion is silenced.128.118.230.17 (talk) 23:23, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

There, see? Now, was that so hard? ∴ Therefore | cogito·sum 23:29, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Wow. I feel like a new person. I'll go out and..uh.. plant some trees or something. 128.118.230.17 (talk) 23:32, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

By the way, nice use of the vertexes of a triangle and your name, I wonder how many people get that. 128.118.230.17 (talk) 23:34, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Nice description of the symbol (really) -- never viewed it that way. Thanks. ∴ Therefore | cogito·sum 23:39, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

As an aside, I agree that Fox News should be considered a reliable source (as I have said previously) and is used accordingly in Wikipedia repeatedly. Even though good arguments can be made that there is frequently bleed-through from the editorial into the news divisions in all news organizaions (Fox, NYT, WSJ, WP, etc.), most of the outlets can be used reliably. Fox's confirmation of Edwards presence of the hotel is not enough. If and when Fox or other outlets confirm the other elements of the National Enquirer story, then this item will be added. I don't yet see any bias here except for the bias to keep Wikipedia standards. ∴ Therefore | cogito·sum 23:57, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

As I linked below (and here), The Sunday Times is now reporting on the story, which is one of the biggest names among the UK papers. Google News also seems to point to an article in the Independent (here) but for the moment the link isn't working for me. Joshdboz (talk) 23:47, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

I copied your comment below to create a new section at the end and replied there too. ∴ Therefore | cogito·sum 00:06, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Early life, education, and family correction

Last sentence, third paragraph repeats what was already said earlier in the paragraph about Wade's essay. Established member please correct.--Bednarluck (talk) 17:57, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for catching that - I have fixed it. Tvoz/talk 18:46, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Hotel confrontation confirmed by Fox News

So, how long are the liberals going to keep us from putting this on Edward's Wikipedia page? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.25.24.244 (talk) 04:11, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

How long will the whatevers going to post comments to the talk page without reading what was said previously? ∴ Therefore | talk 04:14, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

I did read it; you said the National Enquirer is not a good source (despite the fact NO college or high school in America will allow Wikipedia to be used as a source) unless it pertains to Rush Limbaugh or OJ Simpson. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.25.24.244 (talk) 05:24, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Oh, good, you did get the gist. I was afraid that possibly your faculties weren't up to par. ∴ Therefore | talk 13:31, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Wanted to add, Wikipedia will not allow Wikipedia to be used as a source either. ∴ Therefore | cogito·sum 21:01, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Worth noting that the London based Times is now running a full article on the story. [5] Joshdboz (talk) 21:54, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

The Sunday Times report

(copied from above)

As I linked below (and here), The Sunday Times is now reporting on the story, which is one of the biggest names among the UK papers. Google News also seems to point to an article in the Independent (here) but for the moment the link isn't working for me. Joshdboz (talk) 23:47, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

This is an interesting article. If this story develops, it includes some interesting angles such as the possible political reasons for the story's timing, that may be good for background. It is, though, about the National Enquirer article and the lack of reporting on the story in the MSM; there isn't any independent reporting. It doesn't corroborate the story as Fox News did to one element, it repeats it. Having a reliable source report on an unreliable source's story (as defined by Wikipedia), doesn't make it reliable unless they corroborate it. ∴ Therefore | cogito·sum 00:06, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Why can't we include it in the main article since Fox News has reported a new development on it? And I have read the above discussion, so please do not refer me there. Ethereal (talk) 03:03, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Fox confirmed that Edwards was at the hotel. Should we add in a section that says, "Edwards found at hotel avoiding tabloid reporters"? That is all that has been corroborated. ∴ Therefore | cogito·sum 03:09, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

You're ignoring the contents of the Fox article. Not only was he at the hotel, but he was described by the guard as "shaken and ashen-faced" as well how he escorted John Edwards out without recognising him at first. Please also note that Fox's Hannity and Colmes ran a report on the story. This is from the Independent.Ethereal (talk) 04:52, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Not only does this Sunday Times article demonstrate the far reaching international coverage this allagation is receiving, but demonstrates that the controversy deserves a separate article. It's now much more than an allegation of an affair and fathering a child, but a documented media silence as reported by The Hill, like the Los Angeles Times memo strictly forbidding coverage of this story, the reported silence of the New York Times, the Newsweek's reporting on the hiring of Hunter and her salary and the Huffington Post's speculation as to what happened to Hunter's videos. All of this is outside the National Enquirer's "Hotel encounter" report. --Oakshade (talk) 05:32, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

How is any of that relevant to a biography of an individual that is supposed to be about his whole life and career? This speculation, fueled by two unreliable sources, Enquirer and Drudge, has nothing behind it other than avoiding tabloids and another person refuting the central salacious speculation, and that makes this a classic BLP violation, as well as being inconsequential to the man's life and career - at least so far. Things can change, and if they do it could be appropriate to add something reliably sourced somewhere on WIkipedia, but to get it in this article it would have to have had some kind of impact on his life. And a note to the IP editor who insists on posting the salacious speculation here on Talk - it will be removed each time, so why don't you stop doing it? We take BLP seriously here - and that goes for talk pages as well as articles. Tvoz/talk 05:47, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't matter if the international reliable press devotes major coverage to a story that was "fueled" or instigated by the allegations by the NE and Drudge, but that is now has major international secondary coverage of the story that is beyond the original National Enquirer report. As for the story being in this biography as opposed to its own article, The Times now speculates that this story has eliminated Edwards as a VP candidate, a topic that actually is currently in this article and will need amending. --Oakshade (talk) 05:54, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

And for the record, before I'm accused of having some kind of right-wing bent, I actually supported Edwards in his most recent presidential campaign and contributed to it financially.--Oakshade (talk) 05:58, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Their speculation about the VP is hardly reliable sourcing - unless they have a crystal ball. And I agree with Therefore's points above. Let the story - if there is one - develop. We're not Wikinews - we don't rush to put anything into bios the moment it is reported - we try to get some perspective and see if the matter is truly notable for a biography. If it is, this will be obvious by the extent of third party reporting that goes beyond just repeating what one unreliable source claims. As for personal political alliances - one hopes that individuals' personal politics play no role in their editing here. I am not saying that you are doing this, but if I had a dime for every time someone supported or opposed an edit on the political articles while insisting that their own politics would suggest that they take a different position, I'd be rich. Let's please stick to the facts and the quality of the sourcing and the relevant weight of a matter and not get into motivation of editors - on any side of the issue. Tvoz/talk 06:07, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

That's what I'm saying. Despite this story being instigated by the non-reliable source's reporting of the alleged affair, we can't get around the fact that the allegation in itself is a story now covered by very reliable sources, internationally no less, and that the specifics are now beyond the non-reliable source's reporting of the "hotel incident." And The Times, one of the most respected newspapers in history, speculating on the VP implications is reliable sourcing. --Oakshade (talk) 06:31, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Story Notable and Newsworthy, So Run It

This story has been in the news for several days now -- in addition to the earlier exposure last year -- and as of today it is being commented on by many "reliable source" newspapers, which are also reporting that the Los Angeles Times, which had previously spiked the story, is now running it -- itself a notable event.

So why is Wikipedia burying the story? It is notable. It is being reported by many news sources. Is this a deliberate cover-up ... or is it a sincere attempt to safeguard the legitimacy of Wikipedia by ignoring the story due to a misunderstanding of why The National Enquirer is generally considered "not a reliable source."

If the latter, let me clarify for those who are knee-jerk reacting to the "bad" reputation of the National Enquirer: The National Enquirer's reliability problem rests upon their use of anonymous sources -- but anonymous sources are nowhere to be found in this particular story, for the simple reason that the National Enquirer's own reporters and a hotel security guard (who has gone on record) are the witnesses to the event, and they are fully named in the story and in subsequent stories. Furthermore, there is now news of the reporters filing an "incident report" with the police, due to the way security was handled during their attempts to interview Mr. Edwards, which moves things to a new level of notability.

Note this headline from FOXNews: "Guard Confirms Late-Night Hotel Encounter..." -- and internal to that article, please find this: "Beverly Hills Police Sgt. Michael Publicker, meanwhile, confirmed Friday that an incident report was filed with the department by two of the tabloid's reporters." So the story has moved beyond the boundaries of "tabloid only" reportage, and is now embedded in stories published by other, more reiable, media outets, and an account of the incident is also on file with the Beverly Hills Police Department.

So run the story already.

64.142.90.33 (talk) 06:26, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for posting this time without libelous details. The point is, 64, that we are not a newspaper - we don't "run" stories. We are an encyclopedia, and we are here editing a biography about a person who has had a whole life and career - he was born, went to school, was a lawyer, a Senator, a Presidential candidate a couple of times, a VP nominee, he's done other work - that's what this article is about. We're supposed to weigh the relative importance of the dozens of news items - when they are even legitimate news items which I personally do not think this one is as of now - and determine if it belongs in the article and if including it doesn't give too much weight to it in the context of his life. As has been said several times, it is possible that at some point this so-called story will become a real story, and it is possible that it will be well-sourced, and it is possible that it will have an impact on his life and/or career such that it belongs here or in some other article in the encyclopedia. But it is not at that threshold now. There is no "story" to "run". So please consider what other experienced editors are saying about Wikipedia policy, and if you have responses to the arguments, make them. Repeating that we should "run the story" is really missing what we're about here. Tvoz/talk 06:39, 27 July 2008 (UTC)