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== red flagging User:Mhhossein ==
== red flagging User:Mhhossein ==
{{hat|reason=Aspersion, either implicitly or explicitly. [[User:Serial Number 54129|<span style="color:black">'''——'''</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Serial Number 54129|<span style="color:black">''SN''</span>]][[User talk:Serial Number 54129|<span style="color:#8B0000">54129</span>]] 13:38, 4 January 2020 (UTC)}}

He's Iranian according to his userpage and seems to think WP:NPOV means equal weight should be given to the views of the Regime of the Mullahs. Um, no... [[User:PAustin4thApril1980|PAustin4thApril1980]] ([[User talk:PAustin4thApril1980|talk]]) 13:03, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
He's Iranian according to his userpage and seems to think WP:NPOV means equal weight should be given to the views of the Regime of the Mullahs. Um, no... [[User:PAustin4thApril1980|PAustin4thApril1980]] ([[User talk:PAustin4thApril1980|talk]]) 13:03, 4 January 2020 (UTC)


:Reported. [[User:Alcibiades979|Alcibiades979]] ([[User talk:Alcibiades979|talk]]) 13:21, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
:Reported. [[User:Alcibiades979|Alcibiades979]] ([[User talk:Alcibiades979|talk]]) 13:21, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
{{hab}}

Revision as of 13:38, 4 January 2020

Reactions article

Because every major politician in the US and Iran are reacting to this (and will probably see more as statements get drafted and people wake up), there should be a reactions article created before the reactions section get too big. I would make one but I'm on mobile. Juxlos (talk) 07:19, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It’s still quite small, so to avoid any disputes I think it’s best to wait.
5225C (talk) 09:21, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Seems some consider it too large already, and began removing content. WikiHannibal (talk) 12:33, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I expect more unrelated non G8 foreign ministries and tier 2 politicians to comment on this soon so it might be a good time for a split. Juxlos (talk) 14:11, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Juxlos, I think the reactions section is reasonably compact and doesn't need to be split right now. Qono (talk) 16:00, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Having a new article on reactions seems unnecessary at this time.Dig deeper talk 20:00, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That's the best time to have something like this, before we need it. InedibleHulk (talk) 23:04, January 3, 2020 (UTC)

Legality and assassination

As there are efforts to assess the legality of the killing, it would be better to discuss the wording and proper sources here rather than by reverting the article. So far the article (not the lead, of course, see WP:LEAD) can be expanded by something like: The Spectator called Soleimani's death an assassination.+ref. We can start with that and expand, if necessary. The question is where to put it. WikiHannibal (talk) 10:21, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Purpoted death of Hashed al-Shaabi

hindustantimes.com (archived here) affirms that "the strike, which occurred at Baghdad’s international airport on Friday in Iraq, also killed the deputy chief of Iraq’s powerful Hashed al-Shaabi paramilitary force". It seems that his death isn't referred by other journals on Google. At the moment, I think it can't be integrated yet into the current WP article.Micheledisaveriosp (talk) 10:55, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hindustan Times states that as a fact, based on Agence France Presse reporting. Provided there was only one strike and provided that we know as a fact that Abu Mahdi al-Muhandis is a or the deputy chief of that militia, I think we can integrate it in the article. In fact it is currently integrated, in the first sentence of the section "Attack", and sourced to The New York Times [1] and Axios [2]. The latter source says "was reported dead". I couldn't verify the former source, but I think it's reasonable enough to include his death and his office held. Wakari07 (talk) 13:48, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Spelling change

Some words have been changed as the spelling was in American English rather than British English and I feel that British English looks nicer to read. RyanPLB (talk) 13:25, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

English belongs to Americans! We invented it after all. NickCT (talk) 14:07, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I can't tell if you are joking or not. Nusent 15:34, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
RyanPLB, Please don't do that. See MOS:RetainLetUsNotLoseHearT 18:34, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I was just doing what I feel is inherently correct. How horrendous of you to insult people out there who do not wish to read things in an Americanised way. Just saying. RyanPLB (talk) 23:27, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Nah, let's not police UK vs. US English. Nerd271 (talk) 00:32, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
You mean, "Americanized." – Levivich 04:08, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Darling, you know for sure I don't mean "Americanized". Sorry to break it to you babes! ;) RyanPLB (talk) 09:31, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Correct Article Title?

New Title : Assassination of Qasem Soleimani

After discussion with NickCT I am snow-closing this RM discussion. It is premature and the proposed title is mostly being opposed. I will open a new discussion below where we can suggest possible titles and narrow down possibilities. Then if there is consensus for one we can simply move the article; if there is not consensus we can open a move request for the most favored title. -- MelanieN (talk) 01:25, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Support

  1. [3] by Reuters (NB: headline from a quote "Iran will take a crushing revenge for the assassination ... Iranian Defence Minister Amir Hatami said" WikiHannibal (talk) 17:27, 3 January 2020 (UTC))[reply]
  2. [4] by Time (NB: other Time articles linked from this one call it killing 1, 2 WikiHannibal (talk) 17:27, 3 January 2020 (UTC))[reply]
  3. [5] by The Hill (NB: called both assassination (3x) and killing (5x) in the article WikiHannibal (talk) 17:35, 3 January 2020 (UTC))[reply]
  4. [6] by Forbes
  5. [7] by Al-Jazeera
  6. [8] by The Daily Telegraph
  7. [9] by The Atlantic
  8. [10] by CBS
  9. [11] by CNBC
  10. [12] by The Jerusalem Post
  11. [13] by The Japan Times
  12. [14] by The Independent
  13. [15] by RT
  14. [16] by Asharq Al-Awsat (NB: This article from October 2019 is not about the January attack. WikiHannibal (talk) 18:11, 3 January 2020 (UTC))[reply]

Aside from the Headline, many sources use the term "assassination" in the lede or elsewhere in the text. Pahlevun (talk) 16:32, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The proposed title doesn't cover the fact that another notable target - Abu Mahdi al-Muhandis - was killed in this event. Jim Michael (talk) 16:56, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Jim Michael: - See my comment above about Governor Conally in the Assassination of John F. Kennedy. NickCT (talk) 17:00, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That's not a fair comparison, because John Connally wasn't killed & isn't known to have been an intended target. Jim Michael (talk) 17:04, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Mahdi wasn't the target though. So isn't it a good comparison? NickCT (talk) 17:10, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Was Soleimani the sole intended target? Were the others who were killed & injured merely collateral damage? Jim Michael (talk) 17:44, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Jim Michael: - From what I've read, it seems they were collateral. In fact, Mahdi may have been unintentional. NickCT (talk) 18:01, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Pahlevun: - Good list! I'd add [17] by NPR and [18] by New York Times. NickCT (talk) 16:59, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Also, "killing" is more neutral than "assassination", which implies treachery and political motivations; this was a military attack. This follows WP:NPOVTITLE. Qono (talk) 17:05, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. I prefer 2020 Baghdad International Airport airstrike for the time being. Until the majority of political voices (not journalists) tend to calling it assassination or killing. Wiki articles are not news. Plus I think the list of sources is biased, not interpreted properly. I will write my comments on the first three I checked directly into the list, please excuse me. WikiHannibal (talk) 17:20, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
User:Qono. "killing" is not more neutral, it is a general term and every article needs its jargon. This article includes an academic examination of the term "assassination" and its usage in military: Pratt, Simon Frankel (2015). "Crossing off names: the logic of military assassination". Small Wars & Insurgencies. 26 (1). doi:10.1080/09592318.2014.959769. —Pahlevun (talk) 17:26, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
From the Introduction of that article, "In the relatively small literature on the strategic rationale behind government directed killings of specific individuals, the term ‘assassination’ doesn’t often arise except in reference to the tactics of state oppression. Assassination commonly carries with it pejorative connotations of cowardice, subterfuge, and unlawfulness". As I read it, the author is arguing in favor of a value-neutral definition of "assassination", but acknowledges that this is not the existing definition of the word. Given that the article currently only has two CrossRef citations, I do not believe this definition has been accepted by the consensus of relevant literature. userdude 22:14, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
TFSA: "Assassination" is not among the words listed in WP:Contentious label, rather it is the technical standard in military jargon. Please see:
Pratt, Simon Frankel (2015). "Crossing off names: the logic of military assassination". Small Wars & Insurgencies. 26 (1). doi:10.1080/09592318.2014.959769. —Pahlevun (talk) 18:46, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strongly Oppose: This article is about the airstrikes themselves. The strike killed other important leaders and is bigger than just Soleimani, so naming the article after him alone is improper and misleading. RopeTricks (talk) 18:57, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose at least until the dust settles and journalists, politicians, and others start using one name. The JFK assassination is most definitely called the JFK assassination or similar. I don't think we can yet judge how people will refer to this airstrike/killing/assassination. Wikipedia is NOTNEWS, and should wait to mimic everyone else. Hydromania (talk) 19:35, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weakly oppose. Not opposed in principle, just a matter of timing. As others have said, wait till the dust settles. But I don't buy the argument against renaming because others died in the same incident. Soleimani was way ahead of Muhandis in notability, and as I understand it the others were subordinates of those two. It seems pretty certain Soleimani was the principal target, and that is how news outlets are mainly covering it. But further details may yet emerge I guess. FrankP (talk) 19:55, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per User:TFSA. smileguy91talk x my huckleberrying 20:15, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, current title is neutral, and is too recent to gauge if this action will be historically known as an assassination of a prominent figure or as a military operation. Regards, DPdH (talk) 22:37, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose I think this article is correctly titled as a raid or airstrike, not an assassination. We define assassination as "the act of killing a prominent person for either political, religious, or monetary reasons." But we also generally think of assassination as an in-person killing of one person only. So for example the articles about the deaths of John F. Kennedy, Abraham Lincoln, Archduke Ferdinand, Ghandi, etc. are all called “Assassination of…” They were attacks carried out by one person against another, bodily. But we don’t generally describe the targeted killing of a rival leader via military means as an assassination. For example, the death of Osama bin Laden is detailed in an article Killing of Osama bin Laden. The killing of Abu Bakr is detailed in an article called Barisha raid. Going further back, the American shooting down of Admiral Yamamoto’s plane is titled Operation Vengeance.
And more to the point - since Wikipedia policy says to use Reliable Sources - some sources are calling this an assassination but most are not. A Google search for Soleimani by itself produces 170 million hits. "Soleimani killed" brings up 78 million hits and "Soleimani killing", 80 million. "Soliemani assassination" gives only 16 million hits. "Assassination" is not, or not yet, the common name. -- MelanieN (talk) 23:42, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Assassination" is a heavily loaded term considering the existence of US executive orders prohibiting them. The Trump administration doesn't consider this an assassination, a view also expressed during the Obama administration w/r/t their policy of targeted killings. For this reason alone I disagree with this proposed move due to WP:NPOV. We shouldn't be endorsing a specific viewpoint that's under dispute in the title of the article, which is what calling it an assassination would do. Even if a majority of sources called this act an assassination I wouldn't support the move as the US government isn't a WP:FRINGE viewpoint. OpposeGrognard Extraordinaire Chess (talk) Ping when replying 00:24, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose As many have said before, wikipedia's definition of Assassination presupposes some personal gain on behalf of the killers. It could be argued either way whether President Trump made political gains or losses based on this action. However, Michael Pompeo also stated this morning on CNN that the killing of Soleimani was conducted in order to end the threat of an imminent attack against U.S. servicemembers in the region. Soleimani's case is unprecedented because he was not only an Iranian General but his role as commander in the Quds Forces was to support extraterritorial forces such as Hezbollah, which are considered terrorist groups by the U.S. and its allies. Due to the attack on the U.S. embassy in Baghdad and murder of an American contractor earlier this week, which were orchestrated by said groups, the killing of Soleimani comes across not as a sudden death but as retaliation against an enemy combatant. Amanda.Yaya99 (talk) 00:46, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

New Title : Soleimani-Mahdi Assassination

Closing this early per WP:SNOW. This is unlikely to make anyone happy. (non-admin closure) –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 23:13, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

  • Several people seem to object to Assassination of Qasem Soleimani on the basis that Qasem wasn't the only person assassinated. Can we get consensus to mention the two major figures assassinated?

Support

Oppose

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Discussion

2020 Baghdad International Airport airstrike → Assassination of Qasem Soleimani – Seems like the more WP:COMMONNAME.

It seems like most sources are focusing on this event as an effort to assassinate Soleimani. Shouldn't we move this article to that page per WP:COMMONNAME? NickCT (talk) 14:06, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I've added this to Wikipedia:Requested_moves/Technical_requests#Uncontroversial_technical_requests. NickCT (talk) 15:01, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
NickCT, I don't think the current title is ideal, but I don't see most reliable sources calling this an assassination. "Killing" is used much more commonly. I think "U.S. killing of Qassim Suleimani" or "2020 airstrike against Qassim Suleimani" would more closely adhere to WP:COMMONNAME. Qono (talk) 15:46, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Qono: - Doing a search engine test makes it look like "killing" is roughly as common as "assassination". Interesting that most US sources tend towards "killing", while non-US tend to use "assassination". I'm sorta ambivalent about which one we use, but I think "assassination" might be more percise. It explains what kind of killing was being done. NickCT (talk) 16:00, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
NickCT, There may be something to the U.S./non-U.S. difference, but the sources that are most reliable and arguable the most international (NYTimes, AP, BBC, Al-Jazeera) are using "killing". A neutral Google News search for "Qasem Soleimani airport" also shows pretty clearly that "killing" is more common. I think "assassination" is also problematic because several people were killed and "assassination" implies only one person was targeted and killed. Qono (talk) 16:11, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Qono: - Your link doesn't seem to work. I think what you'd want to do is compare ("Qasem Soleimani airport" killing) versus ("Qasem Soleimani airport" assassination). Saying you're doing a "neutral" search w/ a single term doesn't make sense, b/c it's still you counting the number of hits (which is subject to your bias), rather than letting Google count for you.
re "several people were killed" - Sure. But the main event seems to be Qasem's assassination, right? I mean Governor Connally was shot at the Kennedy Assassination. We still call it the Assassination of John F. Kennedy. Not the "The Book Depository Shooting". NickCT (talk) 16:25, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
NickCT, Sorry about the broken link. The point is that after searching generally for "Qasem Soleimani airport" shows that most of the top hits use "killing" and not "assassination". This is just one measure. Wikipedia's policy says that the common usage in "independent, reliable English-language sources" should determine the title, and as far as I can tell, "killing" is more common and more neutral as well (WP:POVTITLE). "Assassination" implies treachery and political motivations. This seems to be a primarily military-motivated attack. Qono (talk) 16:37, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Qono: - I agree with everything you're saying. I'm just asking whether you should be counting references to determine WP:COMMONNAME, or whether you should be letting Google (which likely isn't biased) do the counting for you.
I'm not 100% sure that assassination is necessarily treacherous, more than it's stealthy. Plus, assassination can be for military reasons. Check out our great article on Assassination! And yes.... I know Wikipedia isn't a reliable source. NickCT (talk) 16:49, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
NickCT, Simply counting sources has its shortcomings, we should be considering the usage by reliable sources and giving them due weight based on their reputation and readership. I've made a list and consolidated my arguments below. There's a link to Merriam-Webster that shows the treachery and politically-motivated implications of "assassination". P.S. You might want to add a move template to the top of this section to draw more attention to this conversation. Qono (talk) 17:12, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Right. But you're calling sources reputable and well read to confirm your own bias. For instance, you picked up on a NYT article that used "killing", but ignored NYT also uses "assassination. Google doesn't do that when it produces a count.
PS Will add the template. NickCT (talk) 17:16, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
NickCT, I'm calling sources reputable based on the consensus of Wikipedia editors and the prevalence of those sources in Featured Articles and Good Articles and was neutral in my search query that resulted in the list below. I came across 2-3 uses of "assassination" among the 20+ sources I listed below. Regarding the NYTimes, if you look at their home page, "killing' and its variants appear 11 times, "assassination" 0. Thanks for adding the template! Qono (talk) 17:23, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Qono: - I take your point that if you look certain places you can see "killing" used more often. I just prefer methods that look over the whole sum of RS's, rather than just certain places. If I looked only at the sources I liked (e.g. the NYT homepage), how would I know I'm not cherry-picking to find the wording I want?
You didn't answer my point about assassination being "stealthy" rather than "treacherous". Can you find a source that defines assassination as "treacherous". Perhaps that's just you conception of the word? NickCT (talk) 17:49, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
NickCT, My earlier explanation should show that I'm not cherrypicking sources. I'm using neutral wording in my query and the consensus of editors regarding which sources are reliable. The source that I linked to below in Merriam-Webster, which defines "assassinate" as "to injure or destroy unexpectedly and treacherously". Qono (talk) 18:00, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Qono: - Hmmmmm..... It would seem you've opted for Webster's secondary definition. Do you see how that's cherry-picking? You literally picked a more obscure definition from several definitions to fit your conception. NickCT (talk) 18:05, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
NickCT, Both senses are applicable. The weaker figurative sense implies treachery. This is also captured by Century Dictionary: "Assassinate means to kill wrongfully..." In most dictionaries I've checked, the primary sense also usually emphasizes a political motive, which seems wrong given that the motive here is primarily military, as I've said. Either way, my NPOV argument is my secondary argument. The main thing is that "kill" is used far more often by reliable sources. Qono (talk) 18:12, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Qono - Agree that assassination is primarily political, but Soleimani was a pretty substantial political figure. It would seem the motive for the assassination/killing was both political and military. I think the way you're coming to your "far more often" conclusion is flawed. Wikipedia:Search engine test could be helpful. NickCT (talk) 18:19, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
NickCT, Ok, I don't think raw numbers of Google search results is the only way to go about it, but even given that measure "Soleimani assassination" has 9 million results, "Soleimani killing" 58 million. On Google News, it's 1.4 million to 12 million, again in "killings" favor. Qono (talk) 18:27, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Qono - You didn't limit the time frame. Doesn't really make sense to look for the terms in articles from a month ago. Plus, you've got to go to the end of the list to figure out the number of unique hits. See the comparison I provided earlier. The count will obviously change as time goes on.... NickCT (talk) 18:37, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
NickCT, Fair enough, but even when limiting to the last 24 hours, it is 7,710 results vs. 4,900,000 again in favor of "killing". Qono (talk) 18:41, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Qono - Can you provide links? I'm getting 131 versus 120 when I try that. NickCT (talk) 19:31, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
NickCT, Sure. Hopefully these links work: "killing" (~6M) vs. "assassination" (~9K). Qono (talk) 20:14, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Country X, orchestrates a fatal attack on a military commander of the country Y, on the soil of country Z, while neither are on war. What do you call it? Pahlevun (talk) 17:28, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I call it assassination but personal opinions of editors are irrelevant. WP:OR, etc.. WikiHannibal (talk) 17:38, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@WikiHannibal: - Nothing says the article title can't change with time. If it changes to killing tomorrow, so too we can change. NickCT (talk) 17:42, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I am not convinced that "majority of sources call it assassination". I also think article names should not change every day based on news headlines. Such intention makes this discussion a waste of time. WikiHannibal (talk) 18:06, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@WikiHannibal: - I'm not sure a majority do either. Doing a search engine test, "killing" versus "assassination" looks pretty comparable in search engine testing to me. One seems more precise though. NickCT (talk) 18:09, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
So when you wrote above that "A majority of sources call it assassination today.", that was a general sentence not related to today's today nor to this particular article? If that was so, I did not get it, sorry. In any case, I still think article names should not change every day based on news headlines. WikiHannibal (talk) 18:17, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry. I misspoke. I should have said "If a majority of sources...." I was just trying to say that common names can change, and we can change too. Agree we shouldn't change every day. But I think we should try to at least get it right on the first day! I know we're not news.... NickCT (talk) 18:26, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
User:WikiHannibal: Those links were examples to show that using this term is common, so commenting on them one by one would lead to a red herring in my opinion. Using the term "assassination" in the title would not be a personal opinion nor WP:OR when you have reliable sources. Qono argued that assassination is not a neutral word, and I provided a scholarly source that says otherwise. We even have Category:Military assassinations here. I'm not saying that any other naming would be wrong, but I believe that the straightforward and historic name for this event would be that. No one will remember Baghdad International Airport, the year 2020 or airstrike in future. Pahlevun (talk) 17:49, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I think that making a list of sources that call in assassination and not saying the rest (that the same sources also call it "killing", that they quote someone etc.) is a misinterpretation. As for the rest of your response, I did not comment on your discussion with Qono, nor wish I to do so. My concern is, and will be, only the list which looks impressive and can influence editors who are not careful enough to check the sources themselves. I am sorry I cannot say now what "No one will remember". WikiHannibal (talk) 18:03, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@WikiHannibal: -re "making a list of sources that call in assassination and not saying the rest" - That's a fair point, though we've also made a list that call it "killing". NickCT (talk) 18:10, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Some of the items of the list list which was to support "assassination" call it "killing" as well. Or quote. Or are not related to the current attack, etc. The list is not objective but a misinterpretation of sources. WikiHannibal (talk) 18:23, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
re "Some of the items of the list list which was to support "assassination" call it "killing" as well" - And vice versa. NickCT (talk) 19:35, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Nick, above you said Doing a search engine test, "killing" versus "assassination" looks pretty comparable in search engine testing to me. That was not my result. I found that "Soleimani killed" (without quotes) brings up 78 million hits and "Soleimani killing", 80 million. "Soliemani assassination" gives only 16 million hits. -- MelanieN (talk) 23:53, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@MelanieN: - Hi Melanie. Thanks for weighing-in. Couple notes; 1) are you restricting your search to content written since the strike? If I ask for articles since then with the terms "killing" versus "assassination", I see roughly comparable numbers. 2) I think even if you find these terms are roughly comparable, there's a WP:PRECISE argument to picking assassination. "Death of MLK" and "Assassination of MLK" might be roughly comparable terms, but I don't think anyone would propose that it'd be OK to rename Assassination of Martin Luther King. NickCT (talk) 00:26, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
To encapsulate the nature of the killing, "airstrike" and "assassination" are both insufficient -- airstrike sounds strictly military and wider-scale while assassination sounds strictly political and surgical. Furthermore, as many have pointed out, many important people died, and unlike the Death of Osama bin Laden (note the title), where multiple high-value targets were also killed, one was not so overwhelmingly instantly recognizable to the general public that any other casualties were an afterthought. I know of no poll to gauge public recognition of Solemani prior to this week, though one may come out after this week. Furthermore, in a month or a year, it may be that another of the casualties was the more critical political figure in the events to come. Tldr: it is too soon to say one figure here stands head and shoulders above the rest in consequence to world events in the past and coming months, and it is too soon to know to what extent the killing was political or military or something else in nature to ascribe it a proper word. SamuelRiv (talk) 00:06, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Ultimograph5 and PhilipTerryGraham: - Governor Connally was shot at the Kennedy Assassination. We still call it the Assassination of John F. Kennedy. Not the "The Book Depository Shooting". NickCT (talk) 18:14, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@NickCT: And like Jim Michael stated, it's an unfair comparison to make. We should have definitive, reliable sources which state that Soleimani was the sole intended target of the drone strike. If I'm allowed to speculate, it would otherwise seem extremely coincidental that the commander of the militia at the heart of this episode (December 2019 United States airstrikes in Iraq and Syria, Attack on the United States embassy in Baghdad) just happened to be collateral damage in this strike. Therefore, it'd be wise to have definitive sources first. – PhilipTerryGraham (talk · articles · reviews) 18:25, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I guess we could do something like "Solemani Mahdi Assassination". NickCT (talk) 18:39, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Anyways, it seems there's consensus for a move, even if this move isn't the one we want. I see no evidence of that. In fact discussion above appears to be strongly opposed to either of the currently proposed moves. Future discussion might result in a tweak of the current name, but no move should be undertaken without discussion and consensus. -- MelanieN (talk) 23:49, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@MelanieN: - When I wrote that, only a couple folks had weighed in and it seemed those opposed might want "Killing of" rather than "Assassination of". Looking back, I should of polled for what the "right" new title should be before making the move request. It seems clear to me that whatever the title should be, the current title is wrong as it seems to imply this "event" was an attempt to blow up an airport. I think we can all agree that that's not right?
Unfortunately, I think there's too much emotion surrounding the word "Assassination" and national pride for my initial proposal to carry. NickCT (talk) 00:26, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That's a good point about putting "airport" in the title. Maybe just "2020 Baghdad airstrike"? I think you are right that we need a free-form poll to suggest possible titles, before narrowing it down to one. -- MelanieN (talk) 01:01, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
What would you think about snow-closing the open "support-oppose" discussion, removing the "proposed move" tag, and starting a new discussion "suggested titles"? With all proposals to be listed at the top and numbered for discussion purposes? "Assassination of Qasem Soleimani" as "Soleimani-Mahdi Assassination" would be two of the proposals. And maybe with no !voting as such, just discussion. -- MelanieN (talk) 01:08, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@MelanieN: - "2020 Baghdad airstrike" would definitely be more concise, and probably less misleading. But it still doesn't seem to make clear that the substance of this event was that one or more people got killed/assassinated. The notability of this event was the deaths that happened, right? Not merely that there was a strike.
Yes. Snow close please. My proposed title obviously won't succeed. Maybe I'll set up a poll tomorrow. I do like voting though. The problem is that there are going to be too many ideas on what the title should be. The discussion will be endless. Voting will tell us quickly which title there is most consensus for... NickCT (talk) 01:15, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Done. I have to go out, would you please ping previous discussants to the new subject? -- MelanieN (talk) 01:41, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@MelanieN:  Done. Thanks. NickCT (talk) 06:12, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Title of this article

Let's discuss what this article should be called. It is clear that we are not yet ready to !vote on a single proposed move. I suggest that we list possible titles and number them for discussion purposes, with new proposals being added to the list as people come up with them. In the preferences section people can note briefly which titles they prefer or don't like, and modify or add to their notes as new titles are suggested. In the discussion section we can expand and explain our reasoning. I hope this method will work for people; isolating the preferences from the discussion will make it much easier to summarize how the discussion is going. -- MelanieN (talk) 01:39, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed titles

  • 1. 2020 Baghdad International Airport airstrike (the current title).
  • 2. Assassination of Qasem Soleimani
  • 3. Soleimani-Mahdi Assassination
  • 4. 2020 Baghdad airstrike
  • 5. Baghdad airport airstrike

-Proposals added to nom's original list-

  • 6. Killing of Qasem Soleimani
  • 7. Killing of Soleimani-Mahdi

Preferences

  • Number 1 is the best option of them all. I noted above that the definition of the word 'assassination' makes any proposal with it flawed. Elimination of an enemy combatant on the battlefield is clearly not that. The fourth option is not good because it is too general. Where in Baghdad? It also assumes there is only one notable airstrike in the city in 2020, which has just gotten started. Nerd271 (talk) 01:46, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Number 4 is succinct and accurate. The article is about an airstrike, not just the killing of one (or two) notables. That the strike occurred adjacent to the airport is also not significant, its just where the convoy happened to be when the drone struck. 2020 Baghdad airstrike does the job. WWGB (talk) 02:00, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    There are 362 days left in 2020, American "terrorists" are in Baghdad and Iran has an air force next door. What are the odds of things getting ambiguous faster than they did in early 2003? I don't know. InedibleHulk (talk) 03:59, January 4, 2020 (UTC)
  • Number 6 (added by me). It is clear that Soleimani's death is the key thing about this attack. And "killing" is a neutral term that is used extensively by media outlets in their coverage. ― Hebsen (talk) 03:27, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Don't move for now until the RSes stabilize and come to consensus on a WP:COMMONNAME. Right now, they're using both "assassination" and "killing". Give it some time, and I think it will start being described by just one of those words, at which point it should be moved to #2 or #6, or something similar, based on which term the RSes use most commonly. – Levivich 04:44, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • At this point I oppose #2, #6, and particularly #3. I don't really care for #1 or #5 because the airport itself was not the target. I am OK with #4 but it is not ideal either so I am open to more suggestions. -- MelanieN (talk) 05:56, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Number 6 or Number 2. Soleimani's death is certainly the most notable aspect of this attack, the only reason it is receiving extensive coverage. It remains to be seen if the consensus of reliable sources consider it an "assassination", though if there is ambiguity I favor "killing" as a more neutral term. userdude 06:00, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support 2 and 3. Weak Support 6 and 7. Oppose 1, 4 and 5. The notable part of this event is that a certain person or certain people were killed/assassinated. If there had been an airstrike, and no one had been actually hurt/killed, this would not be a notable event and wouldn't have an article. The WP:COMMONNAME for this incident is still being worked out (by the sources). In absence of a common name, lets just choose a name that simply and succintly explains the important part of this event... NickCT (talk) 06:15, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
If the event was not even notable, we would not even have a page for it. But because the page exists and is being updated with a variety of sources, we know it is notable.Nerd271 (talk) 06:22, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Nerd271: - I don't think you take my point. Imagine if the bombs had missed yesterday. Or imagine they had hit an empty car. Do you think we'd have this article today? Probably not. Why? B/c the notable part of this event was the people who were killed. NickCT (talk) 06:26, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That's exactly my point. This page is not only not nominated for deletion but keeps getting updates. So of course it is on a notable topic. The fact that Wikipedia has an article (that no reasonable editor would nominate for deletion) means that something significant happened. Nerd271 (talk) 06:29, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Nerd271: - Ok. So we both agree the topic is notable. And we agree the notable part of the topic is the killing. So why title the article "Airstrike" instead of "Killing" or "Assassination"? Isn't "Airstrike" misleading? NickCT (talk) 06:32, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@NickCT: Very good! We're getting somewhere. A notable airstrike inflicts damage of some sort. You see where I'm going with this? Nerd271 (talk) 06:39, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Nerd271: - Right...... but you just agreed that the airstrike, in and of itself, was not notable. It was the killing that was notable. So why call it a "notable airstrike"? NickCT (talk) 06:42, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Because one highly notable military officer from Iran was killed in action, along with his associates, which someone who reads the introduction would find out. I understand the desire to change the current name; the situation is fluid. But I think the current one is sufficiently general and adequate for now. Nerd271 (talk) 06:48, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Nerd271: - Ok. Good. So my point is that the article is more appropriately called something like "military officer from Iran killed". Or more succinctly options 2,3,6 or 7 above. I think you get the point. I'm not arguing the current title isn't "adequate". I'm saying there's a clearly better option.
If all we strive for is "adequacy", where would we be? NickCT (talk) 06:52, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

(Moving here, responses to Hebsen's choice of #6)

@WikiHannibal, Pahlevun, Jim Michael, Mr.User200, Qono, Ultimograph5, PhilipTerryGraham, TFSA, RopeTricks, Hydromania, FrankP, Smileguy91, Kencf0618, LuvataciousSkull, Nerd271, DPdH, Chess, InedibleHulk, and Ultimograph5: - Per User:MelanieN's instruction, I hereby ping participants in the previous move discussion, who have yet to comment in this new move discussion. NickCT (talk) 06:09, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I still like 5. The airport wasn't destroyed, but it was in the area. But once an "Operation Blanking Falcon" name is finalized, I support that. InedibleHulk (talk) 07:14, January 4, 2020 (UTC)
I think any title with the name "assassination" is flawed and this entire discussion is too. Right now we're debating over whether or not the airstrike was an assassination or not. That's not what we should be discussing. The term "assassination" is a heavily charged word and is not appropriate for the title of the article as it would violate WP:NPOV. Whether or not the act was a targeted killing on the battlefield or a "bona fide" assassination is a debate that should happen in the political arena and among secondary sources. Not on Wikipedia. The characterization of this act as an "assassination" is disputed by the US government which is certainly not a WP:FRINGE view and we need to respect that there are multiple points of view on this airstrike, using the most neutral title we can for the article and explaining the debate over whether or not the airstrike was the means by which an assassination was carried out in the body. We shouldn't be debating at all over whether this is an assassination, but how we can convey the debate over whether or not this is an assassination in a neutral manner. Grognard Extraordinaire Chess (talk) Ping when replying 07:47, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Could you edit your comment to make it moe visible in this discussion? Chisel in stone, perhaps? I tried to explain the same notion to some of the editors here, but failed. Thanks! WikiHannibal (talk) 11:42, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think the title should be changed to reflect the purpose and outcome of the attack. The purpose was not to attack the airport; the existing title is quite misleading in that sense. The purpose was to kill Soleimani, and that was the outcome. Yes, others were killed; that information is covered in the article. None of the victims were household names in the English-speaking world, but that does not mean we should avoid naming the prime target in the title. In the event a code name comes to light, eg: Operation Snuff Soleimani, we can change the title to that from whatever title then exists. In the meantime, I favor a title (number 6, "Killing of...") that more nearly describes the event and purpose than the present one. DonFB (talk) 11:56, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm content with choice of #6, it's descriptive of what was surely the main intention behind the attack. True, others died and one at least was notable, but not on the scale of Soleimani. Check any news outlet covering this story and see how many times Abu Mahdi al-Muhandis gets mentioned in comparison. In six months or a year or more how will the event be remembered? As the "Killing of Qasem Soleimani" I should think. FrankP (talk) 12:09, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comparison of Soleimani to Osama and Al-Baghdadi

I'm going to edit this sentence and delete references to Osama and al-Baghdadi: "Unlike Osama bin Laden and Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, Soleimani felt comfortable operating in the open and was not hard to find." I realize that both al-Baghdadi and Osama were killed in US operations, but this comparison also makes it seem as if Soleimani were a terrorist such as this. He was an adversary of the US, but he was also a Major General in the Iranian army and given his status this comparison is disingenuous and demeaning. It's also worth pointing out that he was an enemy of the two of them. 93.38.67.230 (talk) 05:14, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No, it was a comparison of style. None of the above said he was incompetent. Nerd271 (talk) 05:16, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Then why not use non-terrorists? This is borderline WP:BLP 93.38.67.230 (talk) 05:20, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Your points are cogent but I think they're original research. I've seen a lot of RSes I've read – I think like all of them – make the comparison between Soleimani, bin Laden, and al-Baghdadi. Maybe it's not a fair comparison, but it seems to be relevant context per the consensus of sources, and not just in the US. E.g., [24] [25] [26]. The thing that ties the three together isn't "terrorism", it's that all three were killed by the US. In fact, al-Baghdadi and Soleimani both during the Trump administration. – Levivich 05:21, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Because they are examples of major enemy combatants recently taken out by U.S. forces, especially al-Baghdadi. Nerd271 (talk) 05:24, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia doesn't have enemy combatants, Wikipedia doesn't have a nationality. He was an adversary to the US, and he was apparently a legend in his country. Look, I'm not Iranian, I'm not some weird fringe conspiracy theorist or any of that, but the guy was a political and military leader of a country, apparently there he was quite popular atleast with part of the population, regardless of anyone's thoughts on all that he was tremendously accomplished, to compare him on the Wiki page about his death with bin-Laden and the head of ISIL seems to me incredibly disrespectful and misleading. It's also not WP:OR, it's rhetorical fallacy false comparison. Same idea if I put on the Ben Franklin page: "Unlike Hirohito and Eichmann, Ben Franklin spoke English as his first language" that is factually true, and also character assassination, if I remove those names and put in modern ones it becomes BLP. 93.38.67.230 (talk) 05:40, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
One does not simply rank that high in the such an elite unit from a major U.S. adversary. So I'm still not convinced that was "demeaning" or a "character assassination." Your analogy is technically true but irrelevant because the contexts of those people are entirely different. It should be noted that we clarified who was making the comparison: someone who considered him an enemy. Nerd271 (talk) 05:47, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I attempted to rectify the issue by clarifying in the text that the comparison was based on the fact they are all individuals killed by the U.S. military. RopeTricks (talk) 06:17, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The current version put forth by RopeTricks works for me. Nerd271 (talk) 06:19, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Works for me too. Thank you, RopeTricks. 93.38.67.230 (talk) 06:38, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I think this is a fair point. I don't quite understand its relevance either, and it seems to me WP:UNDUE. The same point could get across with something along the lines of: "Soleimani felt comfortable operating in the open and was not hard to find." While true that he didn't hide himself and al Baghdadi and Bin Laden did. It's also true that he was a Major General in the Revolutionary Guard and the leader of Quds, so why would he hide himself? Do military leaders often hide themselves? The point of this comparison is to merely conflate him with terrorists. I don't get what added understanding the reader derives from this long comparison other than seeing his name next to Bin Laden's despite the fact that they were completely unrelated. I agree with the OP, and Mhhossein this should be cut. It is character assassination. Alcibiades979 (talk) 09:35, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That's the point, we are not going to be the voice of those who were his adversary by giving undue weigh to their claims. Unlike the U.S. version of the story, he is never compared to the terrorist leaders and making such a comparison, for whatever reason it is, makes for a clear POV pushing in the article. --Mhhossein talk 09:51, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
What's more is the comparison is completely bizarre. Soleimani fought against ISIL in Iraq and Syria, and al-Baghdadi would've killed him in an instant and put the video on al-Jazeera because of the fact that Soleimani was 1. Persian 2. Revolutionary Guard 3. Shia. They didn't even speak the same language. So the entire idea that somehow in death the two people so opposite become inextricably linked completely boggles the mind. Alcibiades979 (talk) 10:01, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Background

The back ground sections needs to be trimmed. The sources with no direct connection to the subject should be removed from the section for the sake of No Original Research. The policy reads as such: "To demonstrate that you are not adding OR, you must be able to cite reliable, published sources that are directly related to the topic of the article, and directly support the material being presented." This is while some of the parts seems to be the editors' understanding of the events.

Moreover, the section is promoting a U.S. version of the incidents. It is attempting to justify why Soleimani was assassinated by U.S. We know that even U.N has rejected the statement by the U.S. --Mhhossein talk 07:40, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

What all would you change? I don't necessarily disagree with your sentiment. The cause is straight forward, this is the english language wiki, majority of editors are probably from the US. I liked your edit here. What else would you do? Maybe we can get some consensus together as to how to make this a better and more international article. Alcibiades979 (talk) 09:25, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

US asked for proportionate response to general’s killing, says Iran

This should be added into the article. --DBigXrayᗙ 11:49, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

red flagging User:Mhhossein

Aspersion, either implicitly or explicitly. ——SN54129 13:38, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

He's Iranian according to his userpage and seems to think WP:NPOV means equal weight should be given to the views of the Regime of the Mullahs. Um, no... PAustin4thApril1980 (talk) 13:03, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Reported. Alcibiades979 (talk) 13:21, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
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