Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Lepidoptera

Sphingidae links

I noticed while poking through a maintenance queue that most of the Sphingidae family seems to have been hurt by the closure of cate-sphingidae.org in 2016. I can (gradually) piece together links to the replacement sphingidae.myspecies.info if that is the best solution. Since 1200 species or so is not exactly a small change, better to get feedback sooner than later. Any suggestions or objections? Yendorian (talk) 06:08, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

@Yendorian: Looks like cate-sphingidae.org never really got off the ground, beyond being a pilot scheme. I struggled to find content on archive.org, other than the taxon name and authority, and the framework for other content. One archived page I did find for Manduca sexta shares some content with the page on sphingidae.myspecies.info so it is clearly the successor site (by the same author) and an appropriate replacement. It won't be an easy task as the old site used taxon names in the url while the new one requires an ID number. —  Jts1882 | talk  09:22, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for confirming. I will start chipping away at the stale references. Yendorian (talk) 22:34, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Yendorian, I would recommend restoring those links. Nearly all of them can be found on archive.today. Scorpions1325 (talk) 20:33, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

There is no need to retain the old CATE Sphingidae citations if they have been replaced by citations for the successor site at myspecies.info. The new pages include the same information and more (e.g. for Xylophanes rothschildi compare the archived CATE Sphingidae page with the myspecies.info pages). That said,it's not clear if the new site has been updated since 2014, so keeping both does no harm (as who knows the fate of the newer site), but I don't think restoring the old links that have already been removed is needed. —  Jts1882 | talk  16:36, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

I just found this explanation on Lintneria lugens:

I know we talked about this, but the person who cited this source copied almost verbatim from them. The old links are useful in determining whether the plagiarized content is public domain or not.

This is a good point, which I'm hoping can be fixed by adding a general CATE reference to the new inline citations. We'll see what @Scorpions1325: thinks. Yendorian (talk) 03:36, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

I was thinking about restoring the old citations completely. It appears that the vast majority of CATE links are still there. So far, I have come across less than 5 pages cited to the new source. Scorpions1325 (talk) 11:27, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

I moved around 70 60 pages with names beginning 'A-L', so this will not be a small change either way. The intersection of dead links with species names should give a sense of the remaining scope. I understand now why we need a CATE reference somewhere on the page, or even an inline citation to copied text, but not why updated links are a problem. If the primary (or only) reference on each page is a dead link, updates to the successor site like these become much harder to find. Yendorian (talk) 13:55, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

I don't see a problem with also keeping updated links. I have come across a few, but I think I attributed most of them already. Scorpions1325 (talk) 13:57, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. I will add archived CATE links back to the remaining 65 55 pages before migrating anything new. Yendorian (talk) 14:07, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

@Scorpions1325, would you mind explaining why you reverted Manduca tucumana? I thought we had agreed on a citation format and would like to figure this out before it spreads to the other 100+ pages with updated links. Your current edit seems to ignore consensus on URL formatting and excludes updates that only appear in myspecies.info. What am I still missing that is bringing you back to these pages? Did you need both links explicitly cited in the article body for some reason? Yendorian (talk) 11:35, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Sorry about that. I tried copying and pasting the citation back into the newer version, but I couldn't for some reason. I forgot about it when I moved on to the next pages. Scorpions1325 (talk) 17:12, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

I have added it back to the article, but I had to auto-generate the citation Scorpions1325 (talk) 17:14, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Good to know. I probably over-reacted, since the occasional lapsed citation isn't very noticeable. You did have a good reason for the last set of reversions though, so I wanted to make sure my edits weren't causing further problems. I will stick to the current layout for now and see what happens. Yendorian (talk) 22:59, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Scorpions1325 The old links are still in history, so making a second pass might be a little excessive. Since I took an extended break in the middle, there is still time to do the remainder differently if we want to.

Many of the pages are small stubs sourced primarily from CATE, so having a live version available is significant. The literature tab shows that the myspecies.info pages are still getting at least some attention. I have been careful to check citations against the new pages to make sure nothing breaks. For example, Hyles livornicoides had a long-standing attribution error and Hyles apocyni gained a genomics paper. The result of all of this should be a straightforward improvement over the CATE links, unless I am missing something. Yendorian (talk) 09:47, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Deletion of "List of Lepidoptera that feed on" articles

There is currently a discussion ongoing at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Lepidoptera that feed on Aster that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. AryKun (talk) 09:53, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Article title discrepancies

I have just read the GA-class article Pine processionary that was a "good read". Looking around I noticed the lack of consistency concerning naming when there are articles like Pine processionary and Oak processionary, then Thaumetopoea pinivora (Eastern pine processionary). It seems there should be some consistency or guidance concerning article naming.

There are articles using "moth", such as the Luna moth, parenthetical (moth) such as Imara (moth) or Corybantes (moth) , or nothing like Hista. Maybe if the article formats criteria had some suggestions concerning concision and consistency it might help. -- Otr500 (talk) 04:10, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

There are two separate issues here. Article titles are based on the name most commonly used in written or spoken English language (WP:COMMONNAME). If there is a widely used vernacular name then this will usually be the article title. However, sometimes a vernacular name is not the most common name, e.g. in cases where different vernacular names are used in different parts of the range of a species, or for obscure species which only get discussed in the scientific literature, in which case the scientific name is the common name in the Wikipedia sense. In your example, is Eastern pine processionary a common name in this sense? My guess is it might be a recent species split, which might mean Pine processionary needs changing. What do the sources say?

The second issue is the use of "(moth)" as a disambiguation term. In those examples the genus name has other uses so the title needs to be modified to an unambiguous name. Imara is a disambiguation page (for the first and last names of people, a geographical place and for the moth genus) and Corybantes redirects to Korybantes (a topic Greek mythology). On the other hand, Hista is only used for the genus so doesn't need disambiguation. Luna moth is the common name for the species. —  Jts1882 | talk  09:11, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Taxonomy

I raised an issue at Talk:Bletagona#Taxonomy because the various databases that list Bletagona are in a 3-way split for which tribe to place it in. What's the taxonomy this project prefs to follow? - UtherSRG (talk) 19:22, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

I don't think that has ever been settled. The project page says "http://www.ucl.ac.uk/taxome/gbn/ may eventually be the primary database to lookup", but that's been there since (at least) 2010.

I don't have much trust in Biolib or EOL. LepIndex/NHM hasn't been updated since 2012. Lepidoptera on GBIF and COL are apparently based on an updated version of LepIndex, but I'm not sure if that dataset is accessible on it's own website anywhere (overall, I don't have much trust in COL either, but maybe it's good for Lepidoptera). There's a note about the dataset on COL that says that some families are not being actively maintained in that dataset, but are maintained in other databases (but Nymphalidae is not on of those).

iNat and NCBI are my go-to general databases for seeing infrafamilial classifications (I mostly look at them for plants, have never used them for Lepidoptera). iNat is usually quite up-to-date, but is not transparent about the sources of their infrafamilial classifications. iNat curators are well aware of the lack of comprehensive databases for Lepidoptera. I consider iNat to be user generated content (or close to it), and would never cite them directly, but do find it useful to compare their classification with what I might find elsewhere. NCBI often (at least for plants) cites scientific studies that their infrafamilial classifications are based upon, but doesn't do so in this case. Plantdrew (talk) 20:26, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

The description of the Global Lepidoptera Index is properly formatted at checklistbank.org. Nymphalidae is neither one of the families they are working on nor one delegated to another checklist. However, the table of names shows only 0.3% of the Nymphalidae records have been mmodified since import of the original Lepindex import. Lepindex had tribe Elymniini and CoL follows that.

A resource for Nymphalidae is www.nymphalidae.net, which places Bletogona in Melanitini. Unlike the other sources, it only lists a single species.

Note the genus name in Bletogona with an O (not A). All sources agree on that, so I've moved the page. I haven't corrected the taxobox, pending a decision on which tribe to use. —  Jts1882 | talk  08:58, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

I expected the response to be as clear as mud. Y'all didn't disappoint. XD I suppose the best we can do is place it in the subfamily, and then discuss how different references place it in different tribes. - UtherSRG (talk) 11:43, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

I think we should follow nymphalidae.net and place Bletogona in tribe Melanitini. The CoL says it follows the Global Lepidoptera Index and places it in Elymniini (GLI record last updated in 2004). This is consistent with a contemporary classification by Niklas Wahlberg, which placed it in subtribe Mycalesina of tribe Elymniini (Wahberg et al 2003 doi:10.1016/S1055-7903(03)00052-6; archived classification) and restricts Melanitini to four genera. Around the same time, a checklist by Vane-Wright & de Jong (2003, pdf) placed Bletogona in Melanitini, as does a recent paper (Pyrcz et al, 2020; doi:10.26049/ASP78-2-2020-01) which discusses the morphology of Bletogona and other genera in Melanitini. Wahlberg in nymphalidae.net also includes Bletogona in Melanitini and lists Pyrcz et al (2020) among his citations . As Wahlberg was author of an older classification placing it in Elymniini and now places it in Melanitini, I think we can take that as acceptance of the newer classification in Melanitini instead of Elymniini. —  Jts1882 | talk  12:52, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Good enough. I'll use the 2003 and 2020 refs to update the taxonomy and text. - UtherSRG (talk) 17:26, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Confusion about Eilema

I'm confused about our article on Eilema. It says that all species except one (Eilema caniola) have been moved to other genera, then lists about a hundred Eilema species that all have their own articles. I checked a random sample of them and all are still titled "Eilema whatevera" - none of them mention reclassification or any non-Eilema synonyms. Either the article is wrong about the reclassification or we have lots of articles that need updating and moving. Does anyone know the latest status of this genus? Smurrayinchester 07:52, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

I've changed the long species list section to "former species". This is not a long term solution but at least makes the article self-consistent. I haven't looked at the article restricting the genus, yet, or if that scheme has been accepted in more recent works. I'll try and have a look later today. —  Jts1882 | talk  08:54, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

@Smurrayinchester: This is rather a can of worms. There was a 2011 proposal (Dubatolov & Zolotuhin, 2011) to restrict the genus to the type species, but this doesn't seem to have been widely followed. A problem with the proposal is it only dealt with northern and western Eurasia species, which makes me wonder how they can restrict the genus when not looking at many species.

Looking at Catalogue of Life, there are 175 species currently recognised. CoL follows the Global Lepidoptera Index, an update digital version of Lepindex (the digitised NHM card index). Many parts of the GLI are out of date but Noctuoidea and Lithosiini have been updated, recognising the new family Scranciidae and some of the genera carved out of Eilema in that 2011 revision, e.g. Katha (moth) and Wittia. So CoL following GLI seems a good source to follow (I know of no other better source for his group).

It's possible that GLI/CoL accept the Dubatolov & Zolotuhin (2011) revision for the treated species but have just left the species that haven't been treated to a taxonomic update in Eilema. While I think this is likely, I need a source stating it before modifying the article. —  Jts1882 | talk  13:01, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

OK, thank you for looking into it! Smurrayinchester 14:11, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Can someone help me sort out the status of genus Asmenistis and the placement of Asmenistis/Lecithocera cucullata?

Per De Prins & De Prins, Asmenistis Meyrick 1925 is a valid genus with Lecithocera cucullata Meyrick, 1914 as type species. (Afromoths; Park, De Prins & De Prins (2021) “A checklist of Lecithoceridae (Lepidoptera: Gelechioidea) of the Afrotropical Region”) This would then mean the type species is currently placed in Asmenistis, as Asmenistis cucullata, because if the type species is not in the genus, the genus becomes a synonym of whatever genus its type species is included in.

But, confusingly, De Prins & De Prins also list the species as Lecithocera cucullata (Afromoths), while simultaneously listing Asmenistis stephanocoma Meyrick, 1938 as a valid species. (Afromoths) To make matters yet more confusing, their 2021 checklist of Afrotropical Lecithoceridae does mention Lecithocera cucullata as the type species of Asmenistis, but then proceeds to include said species under Lecithocera not Asmenistis. (Park, De Prins & De Prins (2021) “A checklist of Lecithoceridae (Lepidoptera: Gelechioidea) of the Afrotropical Region”).

Databases appear about equally unhelpful. While the Interim Register of Marine and Nonmarine genera places the species in Asmenistis, it is massively outnumbered by databases that do not: GBIF treats Asmenistis as valid but does not include cucullata among its species; Afromoths as described above does the same, as does the Catalogue of Life, to name a few. (LepIndex does place the species in Asmenistis, but is also so thoroughly outdated it cannot be relied on for any taxonomically confusing, disputed or controversial placements.)

TL;DR: Either the genus Asmenistis is a synonym of Lecithocera, or the type species' current binomial and placement should be Asmenistis cucullata, as that's how type species, binomial names and the ICZN work. Yet for some reason, finding out which of the two is just about impossible. AddWittyNameHere 00:04, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

It seems like it's either a mistake in accepting Lecithocera cucullata, or that A. stephanocoma is what some taxonomic databases call an "unplaced name" (the database wants to recognize the species, but no combination exists in the genera that the database wants to recognize). My guess is an unplaced name. Plantdrew (talk) 00:53, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Makes sense, but sadly doesn't really solve the issue in regards to how to treat the articles on-wiki. Guess I'm going to send an e-mail or two, see if I can get some clarification and maybe a reference to whatever relevant scientific literature might exist that has escaped my notice. AddWittyNameHere 01:11, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Lepindex recognises Asmenistis cucullata as a valid name (link), but the Global Lepidoptera Index recognises Lecithocera cucullata as an accepted species with Asmenistis cucullata as a synonym (link). GLI is the source used by CoL and is the successor to Lepindex. At it's Col about page says, it is "a revised dataset based on the Global Lepidoptera Names Index (LepIndex), a digitised and updated version of the unique index card archive". While it points out that "large sections of the dataset are outdated and contain errors or inaccuracies", it then specifies which groups are not being updated (because other databases are handling those groups) and which groups have had "signficant improvements" in GLI. The latter include Lecithoceridae. The fact that GLI differs from Lepindex indicates that it has had a recent update from Lepindex. As GLI agrees with Afromoths in recognising Lecithocera cucullata, I think that is good reason to use Lecithocera cucullata. Like Afromoths, GLI recognises Asmenistis despite the type no longer being included. This is problematic but that's what the sources say.  —  Jts1882 | talk  06:48, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know! GLI is throwing a bunch of 503s for me so I couldn't check that one personally. Made another attempt to look at the scientific literature to figure out if/when cucllata was transferred back to Lecithocera, which could have helped clear up some confusion, but...nothing online, so far. Which implies it has been some while ago, if it actually happened and isn't some random error that got copied from database to database. But yeah, it is what the sources say so it's what we'll have to go with, I guess, even if it results in listing a genus whose type species isn't actually in it. AddWittyNameHere 09:04, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Donald Hobern is the contact for GLI. I don't see an e-mail but there is a contact form on his website at https://stangeia.hobern.net/about/. The website also has some information on updates to CoL datasets (see https://stangeia.hobern.net/category/biodiversity-informatics/species-lists/), which helps us know which Lepidoptera groups are reasonably current and which should be followed with caution.  —  Jts1882 | talk  10:55, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

I popped off an e-mail to Jurate De Prins earlier, as one of the authors involved in what is as far as I can tell the sole recent scientific publication (the above-mentioned checklist of Neotropical Lecithoceridae) that mentioned Asmenistis at all recently, but I suppose an e-mail to Donald Hobern might not hurt either, as I did have some useful contact with him a while back on a different group of moths and found him to be pretty responsive to e-mails with questions. Think I might wait a day or two to see if I might get a response from De Prins first, though. AddWittyNameHere 11:08, 12 June 2024 (UTC)