Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement
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See also: Logged AE sanctions
Important information Please use this page only to:
For all other problems, including content disagreements or the enforcement of community-imposed sanctions, please use the other fora described in the dispute resolution process. To appeal Arbitration Committee decisions, please use the clarification and amendment noticeboard. Only autoconfirmed users may file enforcement requests here; requests filed by IPs or accounts less than four days old or with less than 10 edits will be removed. All users are welcome to comment on requests except where doing so would violate an active restriction (such as an extended-confirmed restriction). If you make an enforcement request or comment on a request, your own conduct may be examined as well, and you may be sanctioned for it. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. (Word Count Tool) Statements must be made in separate sections. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as personal attacks, or groundless or vexatious complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions. To make an enforcement request, click on the link above this box and supply all required information. Incomplete requests may be ignored. Requests reporting diffs older than one week may be declined as stale. To appeal a contentious topic restriction or other enforcement decision, please create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}.
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Rasteem
editRasteem is topic banned from the subject of India and Pakistan, broadly construed, until both six months have elapsed and they have made 500 edits after being notified of this sanction. Seraphimblade Talk to me 05:42, 6 December 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Rasteemedit
There is a lot to unpack in the wall of text posted by Rasteem.
Discussion concerning RasteemeditStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by RasteemeditAnswers 1. This was my first sourced article. I wasn't aware of close paraphrasing. After this note,[15] I didn't repeat this mistake. 2. & 3. I moved Hoysala Kingdom > Hoysala kingdom twice. I thought the word "Kingdom" was not part of the full name. After this notice,[16] I didn't repeat such mistakes. 5. On Political marriages in India there was a content dispute among different editors.[17] I had talked to the editor who reverted my edits, explained to him why I considered his GC note as retaliatory. [18] 6. About General notice of GSCASTE. I gave an explanation to the editor who gave me this notice and explained to him why I considered his warning a retaliatory (see answer#5 & diif #[4]). 7. Addition in Zafar Khan's paragraph as Jat ruler was a copyedit per the cited source.[1] I wasn't trying to promote a specific POV. 8. On 9 November, I accidentally committed a 3RR violation. At the time, 'I was unaware that the 3RR was not only about making 3 reverts using Twinkle. Please accept my apology considering it my first mistake. 'when I said I didn't conduct an edit war, I said it in the sense that I made only 2 reverts using the Twinkle'. 9. There are multiple authors named Priyanka Khanna. I thought journal written by this author[19] but actually was written by this.[20] 10. As I'm allowed to remove own talk page messages after reading it. For explainations about retaliatory warning (see answers #5) 11. & 12. On 14 November after this revert, I didn't make further reverts on this page.[21] And left a notice on Talk:page[22] regarding recent revert and removal of content. 13. I gave a reply to Crypto's comment.[23] I gave there my explanation; it wasn't in the intention of Poison in the well. 14. I was advised by admin that you have to leave an edit warning for every revert you made without checking edits of a user. I asked him, Will it be Back Bitting?[24] If I give many warnings for each revert I made or just after their 1st or 2nd vandalism. He said that's incorrect, & it is necessary to leave an edit warning for each revert.[25]
Further answers 6. You didn't ask me for the clarification so I didn't get a chance to clarify. In this conversation I discussed how many warnings I considered retaliatory and for what reasons.[26] 7. Your provided diff is an older one when I added 3 paragraphs with four sources.[27] Later I removed the word 'Jat'[28] from this paragraph, then I thought someone would object why I removed this word then I copyedited.[29] 8. I think I understand the 3RR rule. 13. My clarification on the rollback request was just to reply to Crypto's comment. 14. I just gave a warning notice for each revert I made (See some disruptive edits).[30][31][32][33][34]
Users are allowed to blank their talk pages, so restoration of the old revision was not required. It was in the sense user learn nothing from their past disruptions & I was compelled to report user at WP:AIV.
Note for Admin:editMy first & last interactions with NXcrypto was limited to Political marriages in India there we had a content dispute. On my rollback request, he was asked for his opinion: "He claimed Rasteem is on the verge of the topic ban." Later, he filed this report instead of resolving the content dispute on article's talk page. This report seems like a coordinated attempt to get rid of edit disputes from Arbitration Enforcement. I'll request the admin please also consider this and check my contributions that is largely for reverting vandalism at RC patrol.[39] Above in my answers I acknowledge and apologize for the mistakes I made, all of which were first-time errors those I didn't repeat. (just noting that this is a comment by User:Rasteem. Liz Read! Talk! 06:58, 29 November 2024 (UTC))
Statement by LukeEmilyeditLooking at their edit history, I think Rasteem is doing a good job across wikipedia. I have had very brief interactions with @Rasteem:. Came across this page when I was posting a message on their talkpage and was surprised to find this complaint. I do not see any POV pushing for any caste by Rasteem. Most of the above items seem to be unintentional innocent mistakes - made by many senior editors - and I will go through each of them one by one. For example, Priyanka Khanna misidentification might just be because google showed up the incorrect search results. They are also polite, for example - [ https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Rajput&diff=prev&oldid=1256533002 ] here they even apologised to @Adamantine123: although it was not necessary. I don't think any ban is necessary.LukeEmily (talk) 22:45, 26 November 2024 (UTC) Statement by (username)editResult concerning Rasteemedit
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Arbitration enforcement action appeal by InedibleHulk
editThe American politics topic ban on InedibleHulk is lifted., while the GENSEX topic ban remains in place. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:23, 9 December 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Procedural notes: Per the rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals, a "clear and substantial consensus of uninvolved administrators" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action. To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
Statement by InedibleHulkeditI was originally banned on July 13, 2023, for mostly GENSEX reasons. Since then, I've avoided both contentious topics and barely bothered anyone in other fields. The elections now over, what I perceive to be the problem others foresaw me causing is moot, and I'd like to be able to clean up uncontroversial articles like (but not strictly limited to) Mike Sherstad and Joseph Serra. InedibleHulk (talk) 06:21, 30 November 2024 (UTC) I'm not sure I understand Femke's question. Problems (namely using female pronouns for a mass murderer most believed was a man and for too heavily arguing my case) led to my block; repeated assurance that I would stop eventually led to my unblock. I think the "avoid American politics" part came up because mass murder and gender disputes were hot-button issues at the time; some wanted me banned from gun control instead. It may have had something to do with things I said in previous elections about how Trump was preferable to Clinton or how Harris should have beat Biden. I didn't really have much to feel or say about Trump vs Harris, even if I could have, and that much hasn't changed. I was only as interested as I was in Trump's prior campaigns because he was a pro wrestling personality; now that he's more fully transitioned into a regular politician, I'll let politics regulars handle him, his opponents and whatever resultant subtopics and drama. InedibleHulk (talk) 06:47, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
And while this appeal seeks an AP2 unban alone, I think GoodDay is right that I might prove myself an improved GENSEX editor now as well, if given that chance. InedibleHulk (talk) 06:50, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
ScottishFinnishRadish, my issue with your issue is that I wasn't topic-banned (from AP2) for any particular issue, so I can't say what I'll do to avoid whatever it is except to say Femke, I agree that my summaries are often misunderstood. They have been for almost 19 years and, as always, when confusion arises, I try to explain. In this latest case, Aquillion, last year, I vowed to back away from that case altogether and would rather say as little as possible about it still. Generally speaking, though, I don't use the word "believed" to imply just belief. Beliefs are at the root of all we say, think and know. I could have used either of those verbs instead, in hindsight, but they all have their own plausibly troubling connotations if one focuses on what's not written. They (just) thought (but didn't know), (merely) knew (but didn't say) or (only) said (but didn't believe). I'm far from always a perfect communicator, but that was me on my best behaviour. InedibleHulk (talk) 04:58, 4 December 2024 (UTC) TiggerJay, consider the shouting and unduly harsh talk over. I'm not sure what these "other things" you allude to are, but I can guess swearing is one thing, questions (rhetorical or not) are another and the rest is probably reasonable and doable. I'll try to fall more in line with ESL, by simply and succinctly saying what I did, but won't follow the given examples precisely, on account of the roboticness. InedibleHulk (talk) 16:48, 4 December 2024 (UTC) Seraphimblade, yes, I had an iffy feeling about that one shortly after I hit "Publish changes". Then it was confirmed a bad feeling on my talk page. Now you're the third one here to reinforce that sentiment, after I'd already agreed to save words like those for self-deprecation (which will likely stop now, too). Like all edit summaries, it's become unchangeable, but still forgivable. I'm sorry. InedibleHulk (talk) 17:11, 4 December 2024 (UTC) Statement by SeraphimbladeeditI would tend to agree that this is pretty short on detail. I would like to see the response to Femke's question before making further comment. Seraphimblade Talk to me 00:57, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
Statement by (involved editor 1)editStatement by (involved editor 2)editDiscussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by InedibleHulkeditStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by GoodDayeditLift the t-bans - IMHO, any editor deserves a chance to prove themselves & there's only one way for that to happen. GoodDay (talk) 19:22, 30 November 2024 (UTC) Statement by AquillioneditDescribing what happened here as Statement by TiggerjayeditWhile InedibleHulk has generally been contributing positively, making useful edits in non-TBAN areas, his edit summaries are concerning, sometimes falling under WP:ESDONTS and can appear as uncivil, even when doing otherwise mundane. Such as using the edit summary of "LIAR!" when removing an edit. Left unaddressed, this can easily spiral out of control again when these same edit summaries are applied to contentious articles. Even in his own defense above, he cites this on his talk page, and in it, clearly illustrates that he finds his edit summaries otherwise acceptable and that his summaries are simply a Statement by (uninvolved editor 2)editResult of the appeal by InedibleHulkedit
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Selfstudier
editNo action. Participants here may, if they wish, submit evidence at the currently open Palestine-Israel 5 case. Seraphimblade Talk to me 06:08, 4 December 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Selfstudieredit
Selfstudier says the RfC is about the lead, not the body, but the RfC is clearly about the body too (check the text here [48]). I contacted Selfstudier on their talk page asking them to self-revert [49] but they said this wasn't edit warring [50], asking me to re-read the RfC (which I read, and is clearly on the body too) and threatened to report me for making a 'false accusation'. Then they went on to remove our discussion from the page [51]. Overall this isn't the first time I'm seeing Selfstudier forcibly pushing their own POV by restoring disputed content in the middle of dispute. For example see Genocide of indigenous peoples [52], Palestinians [53], Zionism [54]
Discussion concerning SelfstudiereditStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by SelfstudiereditThe first editor to respond thought the RFC was not actionable and did not understand why the RFC was "Considering a link alone in the aether..". As second to respond, neither did I, since it would it not be possible to add a link in the lead (Option 2) without there being material in the article body discussing the Gaza genocide. So I first suggested that opener should pull the RFC while that was developed. When that suggestion was not taken up, I prepared a suitable paragraph and posted it at the RFC with the intention of adding it to the article body and which I subsequently did. Any editor could have done this at any time nor was this edit warring, as reporting editor complained of at my talk, because the material that Huldra had previously added to the article was completely different and was added to the lead not to the article body. When my addition was reverted, I reverted on the basis that the RFC was about adding a link to the lead and not about adding relevant material to the body. Thus, I made precisely one revert, which is not edit warring. In my subsequent !vote, I then indicated option 2 and specified where in the lead the link should be placed. I didn't go ahead and add that link because from my perspective, that is what the RFC is actually about and what RFC opener had actually tried to do initially. I have no idea what the POV pushing allegation is about, seems reporting editor is simply padding their report. If they think those accusations have any merit, then I would suggest they include them with proper evidence at the current ARBCOM case, where I am a named party. Selfstudier (talk) 15:26, 1 December 2024 (UTC) Statement by Butterscotch BelugaeditI'm only going to comment on the examples given concerning previous possible POV pushing
Statement by (Doug Weller)editI apologise for having no time right now for an indepth analysis, but when I first saw this I assumed it was Selfstudier bringing this here. So far as I know the 0revert imposed upon ABHammad by User:Barkeep49 still remains in place. Doug Weller talk 17:02, 1 December 2024 (UTC) Statement by (username)editResult concerning Selfstudieredit
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Arbitration enforcement action appeal by IdanST
editAppeal declined. Seraphimblade Talk to me 16:33, 4 December 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Procedural notes: Per the rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals, a "clear and substantial consensus of uninvolved administrators" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action. To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
Statement by IdanSTeditStatement by ScottishFinnishRadisheditThey were previously blocked twice for ECR violations, with two failed appeals, then topic banned for ECR violations, permission gaming, and NPOV issues. This block was made after violating that topic ban. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:42, 2 December 2024 (UTC) Statement by (involved editor 1)editStatement by (involved editor 2)editDiscussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by IdanSTeditStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by (uninvolved editor 1)editStatement by (uninvolved editor 2)editResult of the appeal by IdanSTedit
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Mk8mlyb
editMk8mlyb is topic banned indefinitely from the subject of the Arab-Israeli conflict, broadly construed. Seraphimblade Talk to me 10:39, 9 December 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Mk8mlybedit
I tried to be helpful and request that they take more care in the future and obviously this editor is not here to be a net positive. Of note, one of the sections of text that they were removing has the script <!-- The following text is the result of consensus on the talk page. Changes to the text have been challenged and any further edits to the sentence should be discussed on the talk page and consensus obtained to change.--> just before it.TarnishedPathtalk 12:18, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Mk8mlybeditStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Mk8mlybeditOK, so I got here after a brief discussion, and so I'd like to ask again: what did I do wrong? I'm trying to remove what is clearly antisemitic content and propaganda. I'm just trying to tell the truth. Zionism is not about clearing the land of Palestinian Arabs, at least not the mainstream type. And the sources I removed are from a guy who has demonstrated antisemitism and justified the October 7 massacre. I read the article I was given and it explains that Wikipedia is supposed to be unbiased because of the variety among its users and to promote critical thinking. It seems that using an antisemite who justified a terrorist attack as a credible source, especially over sources that debunk his claims, goes against that. If you're willing to defend antisemitic content that violates the site's neutral point of view for the sake of procedure, that says more about you than me. And even if it didn't, presenting a neutral point of view does not mean ignoring basic facts and showing a false balance between facts and lies. I want an explanation for this. Mk8mlyb (talk) 02:50, 7 December 2024 (UTC) What? I didn't say that. I basically said that my edit was in line with the site's guidelines. The fact that you won't even explain what I did wrong and write me off as a bad guy is just dumb. If you have a good explanation for this that doesn't involve antisemitism, I'd be happy to hear it. I am here to be a net positive, it's just that people don't like what I think that involves. Mk8mlyb (talk) 03:27, 7 December 2024 (UTC) What exactly are Wikipedia's standards on what is antisemitic? Because whatever they are, the result has been a swarm of anti-Israel bias. Article after article slams Israel, from accusing it of human rights abuses such as denying water and food, ethnic cleansing, war crimes, to outright genocide, to even comparing it to Nazi Germany, none of which are closely true. Losing a war is not genocide, and it's Hamas that started the war when they invaded Israel and killed hundreds of innocent Jewish people. Israel has repeatendly sent food and aid to Gaza and the West Bank to help the Palestinians, and it's Hamas that has repeatedly stolen the aid for its own selfish gains. Israel consistently put their own soldiers in danger to protect the Palestinians from their attacks on schools and mosques where Hamas hides its rockets and missiles. Look, I don't mind showing the suffering of the Palestinians and criticizing the Israeli government. Israel is not perfect. But to act like there are fine people on both sides of Israel and Hamas is a false balance. This is not American politics, where both the Democrats and Republicans are to blame for the situation. It's not both sides, and Israel is in the right to defend itself against genocidal terrorists. If Wikipedia is to truly maintain its credibility and commitment to facts and a neutral point of view, it needs to fix the articles to show these facts. But we're not. And that's the problem. You're probably wondering why I'm bringing this up here when I should have brought it up on the talk page, and I guess you'd be right. I probably could have handled this a little better. But my point still stands. Mk8mlyb (talk) 05:09, 7 December 2024 (UTC) Sure. I guess I can see the issue. But I have to say, if the rules allow such bias to permeate through the articles of the Arab-Israeli conflict, then the rules have to be changed. And I am not acting on media misinformation or social media. I did some research on my own. Also, it's not just about one sentence or source. Mk8mlyb (talk) 06:45, 7 December 2024 (UTC) What are you talking about? You haven't even fully explained what the problem is. I'm not here to cause trouble. If you give me a chance I'll back off and let it be. Mk8mlyb (talk) 07:02, 7 December 2024 (UTC) OK, I get it. I was wrong to edit the sentence against consensus and without checking the rules. I'm not doubling down. But I do have a source proving that the writer in question defended the October 7 massacre:[1] Mk8mlyb (talk) 08:53, 7 December 2024 (UTC) @Valereee: I understand the content policies just fine and I'm not trying to double down. I just don't think they're being followed. There's no need for a ban. Mk8mlyb (talk) 19:34, 7 December 2024 (UTC) @Valereee: Yeah, I guess so. Though I'm not sure how that's related to policy. I probably took things a little too far. I'm sorry. I will go through the proper procedures next time I want to edit a contentious topic, and I will not call people antisemites without justification. Mk8mlyb (talk) 20:15, 7 December 2024 (UTC) OK, come on. I said I was sorry for ignoring the CTOP notice and taking things too far. I promise to go through the proper procedures next time I want to edit a contentious topic, and I will not call people antisemites without proper reason. Can we just call it a day? There's no need for a ban. Mk8mlyb (talk) 22:35, 7 December 2024 (UTC) Hello? Is anyone listening to me? I said I was sorry for ignoring the CTOP notice and taking things too far. After thinking about my actions, I understand what I did wrong. I promise to go through the proper procedures next time I want to edit a contentious topic, and I will not call people antisemites without proper reason. Can we please just call it a day? I'm willing to play ball. There's no need for a ban. Mk8mlyb (talk) 02:43, 8 December 2024 (UTC) What exactly does specific mean? I've acknowledged exactly where I went wrong and and have pledged not to repeat those things. I admit that I should have heeded the CTOP notice and not accused people of being antisemites without proper reason. I also admit that I should have brought up the issue on the talk page and sought a consensus rather than rush in headfirst, and that I should have made sure my sources followed the guidelines. What do I have to say to be more specific? I don't get it. If you give me a chance, I'll back off and let it be. Mk8mlyb (talk) 06:10, 8 December 2024 (UTC) Statement by M.BittoneditThe above comment by Mk8mlyb says it all. Not only do they not recognize the issues with their editing, but they are insisting that they are right and everyone else is wrong (or pro antisemitism, to be precise). A topic ban will probably prevent them from digging themself into a bigger hole. M.Bitton (talk) 03:14, 7 December 2024 (UTC) Statement by Sean.hoylandeditIs it just me struggling to connect the words to the actions? There are 14 sources cited. What is the specific meaning of the statement "the sources I removed are from a guy who has demonstrated antisemitism and justified the October 7 massacre"? Why is the editor at that specific article out of 6,920,655 articles editing that specific sentence in such a seemingly bizarre way detached from policy? Have their actions been caused by external factors like misinformation in the media, social media commentary etc.? If they have an elevated susceptibility to misinformation, they should probably not be editing an encyclopedia, let alone articles in a contentious topic area. Sean.hoyland (talk) 04:27, 7 December 2024 (UTC) If I may, Mk8mlyb, let's assume for the sake of argument that all statements after 'Because whatever they are...' are the case. It still doesn't explain or justify your actions, actions that resulted in this AE report, removal of a statement with 14 sources. Wikipedia claims to be a rules-based system. It looks like your actions, regardless of any larger scale patterns that may or may not exist in Wikipedia's coverage of the Arab-Israeli conflict, are inconsistent with the rules. That seems to be the issue. Can you see it? Sean.hoyland (talk) 05:42, 7 December 2024 (UTC) Statement by Zero0000editThis editor shows no sign of acknowledging fault or of understanding what editing within the rules requires. This (false) BLP violation would justify action all by itself. Besides that, it's about time that administrators cracked down on casual accusations of antisemitism, which are becoming more and more common. Zerotalk 04:44, 7 December 2024 (UTC) This isn't the place for source discussion, but for the record Khalidi has been quoted many times calling the Hamas attack a war crime. Here, for example. Zerotalk 11:10, 7 December 2024 (UTC) Statement by (username)editResult concerning Mk8mlybedit
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Entropyandvodka
editThis request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Entropyandvodka
edit- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Safrolic (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 16:49, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Entropyandvodka (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
Between Oct 6 and 7th, 2023, this user made over 500 edits changing short descriptions. example,contribs log during the time period A majority of the edits were on Oct 6th, about 325 by my very rough count. They stopped their edit chain a few minutes after getting EC on the 6th, then did a couple hundred more on the 7th. Granted at 16h00, final edit of the day at 16h03 They had never made this kind of edit before, and they've only made a few edits of this type ever since, all on one P-I article this spring. They now have over 1,400 edits. Since then they have focused almost entirely on the PIA space, but have dedicated some time to the invasion of Ukraine. In the Russian invasion space, they've concerned themselves with making sure that a pro-Russian narrative is represented. [59][60] They appear in Billedmammal (talk · contribs)'s ARBPIA statistics broadsheet, which shows their edits as being 100% in PIA for the remainder of 2023 and 75% PIA for 2024. I sought input from SFR before making this report, because I see deeper implications from a gaming run for PIA on Oct 6th 2023.
I have not interacted with this user, beyond notifying them of this report.
- If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)
- Previously given a discretionary sanction or contentious topic restriction or warned for conduct in the area of conflict on 8 May 2024 by SeraphimBlade (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA).
- Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on 13 Oct 2023 (see the system log linked to above).
- Participated in process about the area of conflict (such as a request or appeal at AE, AN or an Arbitration Committee process page), on 8 May 2024 (same incident as the warning).
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
Re: Liz's comment, I was unsure whether this was stale given that their further edits would put them over EC by now, though likely not without counting the PIA-related edits. This was why I asked SFR on his talk page first, who advised me that there likely wasn't a stale period for permission gaming. I haven't tried to assess recent content or conduct beyond a brief look at the Russia/Ukraine related edits. Safrolic (talk) 21:59, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Entropyandvodka
editStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Entropyandvodka
editStatement by (username)
editResult concerning Entropyandvodka
edit- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- Since this editor now has about 1400 edits, if those edits had been gaming, they would be EC by now without them. I'm not sure how we assess possible gaming from over a year ago. Are there recent edits that concern you? I'd like to see what admins who frequent ARE think about this case. Liz Read! Talk! 21:42, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- As Liz said, they'd be well over EC by now anyway. I'm really not inclined to go over stuff dredged up from a year ago unless there's been actual misconduct since then (and then it would be the more recent misconduct that would concern me). It evidently wasn't enough of a concern for anyone to raise in a timely fashion. Seraphimblade Talk to me 02:11, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
- I said on my talk page that I didn't really think that gaming could be stale, but I'm also interested in if there has been disruptive editing. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:58, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
- Without further evidence of disruptive editing I will be closing this as no action taken. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:54, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
Tattipedia
editTattipedia blocked 1 week by ScottishFinnishRadish for ECR violations. Seraphimblade Talk to me 10:04, 9 December 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Tattipediaedit
Tattipedia has engaged in a RFC which is subject to WP:ARBECR after being advised that they can't and acknowledging it. Notably when @Theleekycauldron reverted their last violation of ARBECR at Special:Diff/1261677047 they noted that "ARBECR and probably a large language model". TarnishedPathtalk 11:26, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
Discussion concerning TattipediaeditStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by TattipediaeditStatement by (username)editResult concerning Tattipediaedit
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xDanielx
editThis request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning xDanielx
edit- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Selfstudier (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 11:30, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- xDanielx (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- WP:ARBPIA
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
Material was originally added to the infobox on 17 October and
Removed by reported editor on 4 Dec, 5 Dec 7 Dec and 8 December with the last revert coming despite an explicit warning.
- If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
Experienced ex admin who should know better.
- @Fiveby: It's out of scope for the PIA case as reported editor is not a named party. Both AE and Arbcom prefer not to deal with content issues. Selfstudier (talk) 10:32, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Fiveby: I did not add the content nor have I edit warred over it. Obviously there are 3 editors who don't share your view while I have not as yet made up my mind, there is an ongoing RSN discussion now, and I will communicate my thoughts on the content there or possibly in an RFC if it ends up as that.Selfstudier (talk) 16:35, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning xDanielX
editStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by xDanielX
editI don't think the "explicit warning" by Selfstudier (Last time, RFC or RSN else AE
) was appropriate; it seems like the sort of intimidation that WP:BATTLEGROUND prohibits. The idea of adjusting my editing based on intimidation by a highly involved non-admin didn't feel right.
Under the conventional view that removing old content generally doesn't constitute a revert, I made two reverts here, with a lot of discussion in between (here, here, here, and this older discussion). My second revert was undoing what seemed like a reflexive tag-team revert, by a user who didn't join the discussion even after I pinged them asking for an explanation.
I normally revert very selectively - looking at my past 500 edits, there are only five reverts (at least obvious ones), with only these two being controversial. If I was a bit aggressive here, it was because the material violated our policies in a particularly blatant and severe manner.
The estimate in question falls under WP:SCHOLARSHIP since it's based on a novel methodology, and it fails that standard due to a lack of vetting by the relevant scholarly community (public health). The closest we have is this paper by an anthropologist, which includes the estimate but doesn't discuss whether the methodology is valid. The paper also appears to have no citations, and the group that published it doesn't appear to have any real scholarly vetting process.
The claim is also a highly WP:EXTRAORDINARY one. Health officials reported 38 starvations (as of Sep 16), which is quite different from the 62,413 (as of Sep 30) estimate. To me pushing to include such an extraordinary claim in wikivoice, with sources that clearly fall short of our relevant policies, indicates either POV pushing or a competence issue. — xDanielx T/C\R 18:31, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
Responses to M.Bitton
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@M.Bitton: removals of old material are not the spirit of edit warring, and in practice are generally not understood as reverts, even if they appear to meet the literal definition. Some recent discussions on this were here and here. I believe you misread the (confusing) history a bit; I don't see any restoration by Cdjp1. A related edit by Bogazicili had the effect of moving some footnote content, including a second instance of the 62,413 figure which I had initially missed, into the infobox. I hadn't understood this as an objection to my removal, since the edit summary conveyed a different purpose. It didn't occur to me that you might not have seen my ping. I'll strike that remark, but I still feel that reverting an extensively discussed change with only @M.Bitton: okay I missed that footnote change, but I think the point stands that neither change clearly conveyed an objection to the idea of removing the estimate from the infobox. If there was such an objection, I would have expected it to be noted in an summary or the discussion thread. And please assume good faith. — xDanielx T/C\R 04:53, 9 December 2024 (UTC) @M.Bitton: |
@Valereee: I would argue that EW enforcement should account for factors like scale, engagement in discussions, timing, policy support, consensus, and broader patterns of user behavior.
- Scale: I thought I had made two reverts. Maybe there's an argument that it was really three, but I wasn't aware of it.
- Engagement: I discussed very substantively (here, here), and tried to get more input.
- Timing: I thought the discussion seemed to have settled. Noone appeared to be continuing to defend the content in a substantive manner, so I felt more justified in removing it. The latest points like this didn't receive a response (besides
Still disagree
). - Consensus: the local consensus appeared to be leaning toward at least requiring attribution (as we do in the body which I didn't remove). There's also just a very clear global consensus against including unvetted WP:SCHOLARSHIP (no peer review, citations, etc) in wikivoice.
- Patterns of behavior: these were my only controversial reverts in recent memory (at least looking at 500 edits).
If I could rewind, I would at least give it extra time to make sure that the discussion had settled, and maybe leave it to someone else to enact the result. However, I think if this were to be considered actionable edit warring, then nearly all active editors in the topic area would be guilty of it. Even in this same dispute, a different user just made their second revert, with less engagement and so on. I would argue that the single revert with no explanation might actually be the most problematic EW here, although I don't believe there's a consensus on whether single reverts are technically considered EW (there have been some inconclusive discussions on that). — xDanielx T/C\R 17:42, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
@Ealdgyth: understood, though I think you mean EW broadly rather than 1RR? — xDanielx T/C\R 19:32, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
I'm receiving the message that the factors I mentioned aren't good enough, but would still appreciate input on what acceptable participation in an edit war could look like. Maybe the answer is that there is none, but that would seem to depart from convention as I understood it, and possibly lead to a lot more formal RfCs. — xDanielx T/C\R 19:32, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
Statement by M.Bitton
editremoving old content generally doesn't constitute a revert
old content means stable content (you know what that means).
I made two reverts
this is factually incorrect. You made 3 reverts (excluding the first content removal):
- Removal of stable content.
- 1st revert, after Stephan rostie restored it.
- 2nd revert, after Cdjp1 restored it.
- 3rd revert, after I restored it.
undoing what seemed like a reflexive tag-team revert
casting aspersions to justify your disruptive editing is about as low as it gets.
didn't join the discussion even after I pinged them
this is extremely disingenuous as it implies that I was editing something else while ignoring your notification, when in fact, you pinged me long after I logged out and I haven't edited anything since (the editing history and the diffs don't lie). Furthermore, I already made it clear in the edit summary that I disagree with your reasoning (which consists of made-up rules and demands to satisfy you with answers).
The bottom line is that xDanielx is edit warring against multiple editors who disagree with them for various reasons. M.Bitton (talk) 02:50, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
- @XDanielx:
removals of old material are not the spirit of edit warring
we all know what edit warring is, so please don't make-up another rule.
I don't see any restoration by Cdjp1
maybe that's because you only see what you want to see. Here is is. Like I said, diffs don't lie.
It didn't occur to me
that's because you assumed bad faith. You made that clear with your aspersions casting that I highlighted above.
- For the last time, I don't need to convince you. M.Bitton (talk) 04:30, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
- Note: Instead of simply striking their aspersions, they doubled down on their bad faith assumption (see their edit summary); and to add insult to injury, they reversed the roles and asked me to "assume good faith" (see their comment above). M.Bitton (talk) 13:54, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
the single revert with no explanation
xDanielx being disingenuous again (what they mean by "no explanation" is "no explanation that they agree with and that they'd rather edit war than take it to RSN or start a RfC"). Anyway, they can also argue all they want, but what they cannot do is justify what they did (edit warring, casting aspersions and assuming bad faith). M.Bitton (talk) 18:31, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
I don't believe there's a consensus on whether single reverts are technically considered EW
I hope not, because that would mean that you violated that rule three times. One thing is certain though, the 3 reverts that you made are considered EW. M.Bitton (talk) 19:09, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
- @XDanielx: quote the complete edit summary or don't bother quoting any of it. I didn't invite myself to this board to discuss content. All I'm interested in is your edit warring, your bad faith assumption and the fact that you doubled down on it after casting aspersions. M.Bitton (talk) 20:06, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
@Theleekycauldron: Done. What about their aspersions casting and assumption of bad faith? M.Bitton (talk) 16:54, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Theleekycauldron: only when the person is not responding (i.e., they are editing something else and ignoring the other editor). I know that they struck the comment, but not without doubling down on the bad faith assumption (see above note). I covered all of this and more in my previous comments. M.Bitton (talk) 23:52, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
Statement by fiveby
editI'm surprised that Selfstudier is making this report. If you're unable here to look at the article content and sources then this should go straight to the arbcom case as evidence. fiveby(zero) 03:48, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Selfstudier:, this is blatantly bad content. Like UFO level blatantly bad. It seems to me WP:PROFRINGE editors in some topic areas get told right off to go edit somewhere else, often harshly, quickly warned by admins, and finally sanctioned without a great deal of fuss about the thing. It seems no big deal when admins in those topic areas have some basic knowledge and apply a few research skills to start warning, topic banning, or blocking editors over content when they are otherwise following policies. @Valereee:, seems like an awfully high burden to impose on everyone here, especially when the RfC process seems to be a big part of the problem in the topic area. I could easily put the shoe on the other foot here, find some trivial bits of content: infobox, lead phrasing, or titles, complain on talk pages and then start a few RfC's. If i were to do that it seems best for WP that Selfstudier report me here for wasting everyone's time and admins here should be able to forcefully let me know that i'm just being a jerk. See ya back here when i've some idle time for the devil's work. fiveby(zero) 16:08, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
3 editors who don't share your view...
bad actors, not because they do not share my view but because they don't share Wikipedia's. Just like all those non-EC editors flooding Talk:Zionism with edit requests and EC editors who've gamed the system to get there. Bad policies. Now there are two good actors and reasonable looking editors here, and more with good work and ideas targets at arbcom. I'd say better to join the edit war and remove that nonsense rather than wasting time with this. fiveby(zero) 17:47, 9 December 2024 (UTC)- @Valereee: i think there are such reasonable editors in the topic area who can work things out and are trying to work things out on talk pages with WP:BESTSOURCES, and good work on the real article content in the bodies. Why are they ending up here and at arbcom? I think it's due to the bad policies and the bad actors gaming them. Wastes time and frustrates everyone. fiveby(zero) 18:06, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
editResult concerning xDanielX
edit- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- Daniel, your excuse for edit-warring seems to be that the claim is extraordinary. I totally see your point on this being an extraordinary claim; to me it seems highly dubious that 62,000 people could have died of starvation over the course of a year and it wouldn't be ongoing international front page news rather than speculation/estimation in obscure sources, with multiple mainstream RS only reporting starvation deaths in the dozens. But edit-warring isn't the answer. The answer is an RfC with notification to projects and noticeboards. It would even be fair to suggest the content be removed as dubious until the RfC closes; there's no particular urgency for WP to include such a dubious number in an infobox, which as you pointed out is similar to providing that info in Wikivoice. Valereee (talk) 12:11, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Fiveby, sure, it would be better if editors at an article would just be able to work it out by saying to themselves, "Hm...yeah, that doesn't really make sense. 62,000+ people dead of starvation? And no one's talking about it except some obscure unpublished research and a letter to POTUS, and both of those estimates are based on a single unproven theory? Maybe we should rethink". But it seems like the editors at the article talk who want to keep this dubious content in the infobox have dug in their heels on defending the poor sourcing and are in the majority. Valereee (talk) 17:43, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
- @XDanielx, the exceptions to edit warring are detailed at WP:3RRNO. It's best to claim an exception in the edit summary. Valereee (talk) 21:54, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Fiveby, sure, it would be better if editors at an article would just be able to work it out by saying to themselves, "Hm...yeah, that doesn't really make sense. 62,000+ people dead of starvation? And no one's talking about it except some obscure unpublished research and a letter to POTUS, and both of those estimates are based on a single unproven theory? Maybe we should rethink". But it seems like the editors at the article talk who want to keep this dubious content in the infobox have dug in their heels on defending the poor sourcing and are in the majority. Valereee (talk) 17:43, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
- So, looking at the diffs here, it seems like xDanielx removes the content once, it's reverted, removes a second time. Then someone else bundles the list into a footnote and a second person re-adds the content, which xDanielx doesn't recognize as a readdition and thinks that they forgot to remove the same content somewhere else, gets reverted, reverts back. If it were actually the situation that there were two instances of the same content, it'd merit maybe a reminder because it's generally not good practice to arm-wrestle in the revision history to get edits through. Given that and the fact that they weren't being careful, I'd say either a warning or reminder is best. As for the content dispute, both positions are reasonable enough that neither one would be sanctionable on its own as POV-pushing, so it's out of scope for this thread. @M.Bitton:
maybe that's because you only see what you want to see
is inappropriate for a civil discussion. Please strike that. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 16:47, 9 December 2024 (UTC)- @M.Bitton: Seems like they struck the "reflexive tag-team revert" comment. As for the pinging, it's pretty reasonable to bring up that someone isn't responding when you try and engage with them, I'm not sure I see the same assumption of bad faith. Open to your thoughts on it, though :) theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 23:26, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
- Per Valereee above, the argument of an extraordinary claim is a reasonable one, but that isn't one of the very few exceptions we allow for edit-warring. I'm also not impressed by the dismissal of SelfStudier's warning as a threat. That said, there is engagement on the talk page, and no bright-line violation, so I would stop at a logged warning about edit-warring. Vanamonde93 (talk) 17:10, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
- Daniel, there is no 1RR exemption for being right. You need to learn that the revert-button isn't a good first (or any) option in this topic area. Yes, it's frustrating to have to expend effort to discuss things but that's what system we have here at wikipedia. I'm okay with a logged warning, but I do want Daniel to understand that contentious topics such as this demand the best behavior. That's how you stay out of trouble, and yes, the filing against M.Bitton, while perhaps merited, certainly gave off a distinct impression of a retaliatory filing - too much of that sort of thing gets editors topic banned or worse. Ealdgyth (talk) 18:14, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
DoctorChkmt84
editIndeffed and then unblocked by me, reblocked by Seraphimblade, all as standard admin actions. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:47, 9 December 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning DoctorChkmt84edit
Discussion concerning DoctorChkmt84editStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by DoctorChkmt84editStatement by (username)editResult concerning DoctorChkmt84edit
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Raladic
editThis request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Raladic
edit- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Void if removed (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 22:58, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Raladic (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Gender and sexuality
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 27/08/2024 SYNTH of a percentage to push a POV not present in the source
- 27/08/2024 Admitted this was to advance a particular POV
- 22/11/2024 Undoing consensus wording to hide negative connotations, with incorrect edit summary, and POV editorializing/SYNTH.
- 23/11/2024 POV / Misrepresenting a source (the source is SECONDARY for the relevant claim)
- 23/11/2024 Revert with misleading summary, describing a fair summary of sources as SYNTH
- 23/11/2024 POV / misrepresenting a source while trying to prevent its use (not published by SEGM)
- 23/11/2024 Continuing to misrespresent the source with 20 co-authors (only 2 are SEGM/Genspect affiliates), and citing a defamatory SPS to cast aspersions on a BMJ journalist source
- 23/11/2024 Dismissing a source as fringe, then:
- 23/11/2024 editing another article to add "fringe" to the lede to try to prove this point
- 07/12/2024 Unsourced POV addition of contentious labels to a WP:BLP, and an edit comment that misrepresented the state of talk
- 09/12/2024 After an AfD started by Raladic ended in keep but rename, unilaterally rewriting longstanding consensus content to strongly push a new POV, with a misleading edit comment.
- 09/12/2024 Ignored requests to discuss and continued POV pushing.
- 09/12/2024 After POV rewriting, immediately proposing it for deletion again.
- 09/12/2024 Edit warring
- If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)
- Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on 12/07/2024
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
After I was brought to AE earlier this year with no action, and the related action against Colin, there was a rough consensus among uninvolved administrators that there may need to be other AE requests to handle other problems raised
. I have had no wish to engage in tit-for-tat reporting, but Raladic's conduct has, if anything, got worse in the months since. Raladic has a very strong POV on trans issues and pushes it constantly, exhibiting WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS, bludgeoning, stonewalling and tendentious editing.
Some of these recent diffs revolve around a 3-month long dispute that began in August with Raladic reverting sourced content. Since then, despite the emergence of additional sources, Raladic has engaged in POV pushing, battleground behaviour, editing nonconstructively, and stonewalling, which is all evident in talk, culminating in Raladic bringing every opposing editor to ANI.
Raladic has a general habit of ignoring requests to follow BRD, and instead re-reverting prior to discussion, and then stonewalling any subsequent discussion.
What I've covered here is only some recent behaviour. I can provide numerous other examples if requested.
- Raladic describing the changes at 11-14 as mere "removing puffery" is further obfuscation. See my comment on talk here for the sort of POV change to long-standing stable content that was pushed through.
- Full timeline of the last two diffs, for clarity (times in GMT):
- 18:54 Raladic's AfD request closes as keep/rename
- 19:10 wholesale rewrite with POV changes to longstanding content, misleading edit reason. Content removal continues.
- 20:26 Revert my restoration of prior consensus, with no discussion.
- 20:41 Revert another editor's attempt to restore prior content.
- 21:08 Having cut much of the article, opens a new AfD
- 22:25 Reverts a third editors's attempt to restore prior content. Void if removed (talk) 08:58, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Extraordinary Writ Given that this not something I've ever either publicly disclosed or acknowledged, I consider this and the original comment an attempted WP:OUTING, and reject either way that it is a WP:COI. Void if removed (talk) 14:39, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Vanamonde93 The most recent discussion of the "fringe medical organization" sources is here. Happy to explain further. Void if removed (talk) 18:01, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Vanamonde93 Raladic's latest comment is exactly the POV pushing and source misrepresentation I'm raising. The mentions of "anti-trans" in the judgment are the statements made by her employer that led to them losing a discrimination case. What Raladic is doing is presenting the Judge's record of the actions of the respondents as facts about the claimant:
On the evening of 24 October Shaan Knan put a message on the STAG wall and on the STAG Facebook page. He said Allison Bailey of Garden Court supported the anti-trans LGB Alliance just launched.
- As for the other, the balance of reliable secondary sources (rather than cherry-picking Pink News) don't support any of this, which I demonstrated on talk. Void if removed (talk) 18:25, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Raladic
editStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Raladic
edit- 1 & 2: which resulted in consensus change that I made as noted in the talk page.
- 3-8: Maintaining WP:NPOV (as I explained to them), which results in the now stable version at the article. Note that the editors including VIR have repeatedly ignored the fact ([65], [66], [67]) that an investigative report is a WP:PRIMARYNEWS source. Other editors also had to explain to VIR and some other editors that refining articles is very common practice.
- 9: VIR then yet again followed me to an article I referenced where I noticed that text from the body was not in the lead and moved it up, which is now at the Society for Evidence-Based Gender Medicine stable article. (But did require yet another endless thread of editors explaining started by VIR).
- 10: Literally sourced in the article. However it did prompt me to analyze the article and notice that it failed the notability criteria, so I started an AfD, which resulted in a move on the legal case as the closing admin was swayed by the prior puffery in the article.
- 11-14: Rewrote the article post move, removing WP:FLUFF that was tangential to the court case to bring the article up to standard for legal cases, focusing on the case, not celebrity endorsements and the likes. For some reason, this apparently needed explanation. After that it became pretty quickly clear that I was correct in my initial assessment that the legal case is a run-off-the-mill case that very likely fails WP:EVENTCRIT as routine news, so I separately nominated the legal case as directed by the closing admin in the discussion I had with them at their talk page, which I felt would be the best course of action, though arguably could also have been a DRV. With regards to the changes I reverted after I made the necessary re-write of the article post-AfD, I immediately engaged the talk thread after reverting VIR, as supported by @Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist who re-iterated the removal of puffery and the obvious necessity that a article in different scope looks different to the prior article. I made two more reversions of editors who tried to reinstate the counter to guidelines content (mainly lead-follows-body puffery), so I made 3 reversions and of course could have waited for YFNS or another user to revert them instead, but in any case, I stopped short of the brightline.
All in all, as Shakespeare said, looks like Much ado about nothing up there. You'll note that in many of the talk threads related to these "reports" by @VIR, many editors have shared my sentiment and as the final edits at articles have shown, my sentiment also appears to typically on the right track. I am one of many highly active editors in the WP:LGBTQ+ space, and have made thousands of fact-based edits in the space and collaborated with many editors productively, so frankly this AE report appears to be little more than retaliation by someone with an apparent WP:COI (as was pointed out by several other editors in the past including in the previous AE of VIR, for the admins handling this case in case they are not aware, let me know if you need more details), so I think this report may be in WP:BOOMERANG territory, especially the ludicrous accusation that Colin's case in any way referenced me, it didn't. Raladic (talk) 23:07, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Extraordinary Writ - Preemptively requesting word extension (250 extra for now?) to respond to any followups (currently at 482 above). Raladic (talk) 00:15, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
- @YFNS - I was referencing the main part of the edit, which was the known for founding the anti-trans LGB alliance, as was sourced in the article ([68]). Fair enough on the Short-desc and category being more contentious, but the ref does say that she self-identifies as gender-critical, which we have synonymous as anti-trans/trans exclusionary. I had never been to this article before 12/2 (when I noticed its lack of notability, hence AfD nomination), so when I read it more, I found it surprising that her only presumed claim to notability as founder of the organization as cited was missing from the first sentence. That's what I meant with, the source was there, because it was. Raladic (talk) 02:58, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
- With regards to the extra evidence presented by YFNS for a BOOMERANG for VIR, I'd like to add that VIR has really not taken the feedback since their AE on board and has since then continued with endless discussions that typically end up nowhere, continuing the WP:TENDENTIOUS nature of their WP:MWOT arguing in this space. Raladic (talk) 03:19, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Void if removed - Btw, in your additional comments by editor filing complaint, which is in a request that is obviously about me as is clear from the title, you referred to me exclusively by my username, 7 times. I do have pronouns, please use them. Raladic (talk) 04:39, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Vanamonde93 - the fringe medical source can be accessed through the wikilibrary and has an entire section of the paper dedicated to it, looks like YFNS below already elaborated on it. As for the anti-trans advocacy of LGB Alliance, it's in the court documents, as well as [69] which I already elaborated on above. Raladic (talk) 17:55, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist
editI would like to suggest a boomerang. VIR's diffs are mostly links to their own WP:PROFRINGE behavior:
- 1 & 2 : WP:CALC is part of the policy WP:OR. Raladic had every right to add it and seek consensus.
- 3 - 5 : There was no consensus for the version VIR preferred. I will plainly state that I intensely dislike WPATH - but I don't let my personal feeling get in the way of RS and FRINGE
- 6-7 : This is clearly splitting hairs. Multiple SEGM members were authors of that paper. More affiliates and frequent collaborators on top. To list some choice names Stella O'Malley, Patrick Hunter, and Kenneth J Zucker were authors. Famous for, in order, 1) founding SEGM, Genspect, and Therapy First 2) banning trans healthcare in Florida for all ages while being part of SEGM, and 3) creating the living in your own skin model
- 8: SEGM is clearly WP:FRINGE, VIR has been arguing with anyone and everywhere for years that it is not. At his last case, he was warned to take the advice of admins to stop repeating arguments.[70]
- 9 : Medical researchers did explicitly describe SEGM as a "fringe medical organization", one of the kinder terms RS use (the SPLC calls it the hub of the modern anti-LGBT pseudoscience network)
- 10 : @Raladic: I suggest you double check/clarify. The sources in the article at the time of your edit described LGBA as an anti-trans group, but the body didn't.
- 11-14: Consensus was that Bailey wasn't independently notable but may be through the case. Rewriting a BLP to an article on a legal case obviously requires a rewrite - VIR went to talk to argue about just one line, glossing over the rest of the puffery removed.
I'll note that since VIR's last time at AE where told to drop arguments he's:
- Restarted arguments at Conversion therapy about gender exploratory therapy almost immediately after the case.[71][72]
- Argued at gender dysphoria in children trying to replace systematic medical reviews with the Cass Report and arguing that transgender children shouldn't be mentioned in the lead.[73]
- Argued WPATH's (the world's largest/oldest health body for trans people) members have a COI with SEGM while trying to downplay their unequivocally false statements about conversion therapy[74]
- At least 200 edits arguing SEGM doesn't actually push conversion therapy on talk and multiple noticeboards..[75]
- Restarted arguments at ROGD trying to sanitize it in the lead.[76]
Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 02:23, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Raladic thanks for clarifying! Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 03:17, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Colin The WP:SPLC doesn't just consider SEGM a hate group, but the "hub of anti-LGBT pseudoscience". WP:FRINGE applies.
- @Vanamonde93 The article repeatedly refers to "fringe medical associations", has a section called "fringe medical associations" where they state
Several international associations including the Society for Evidence-based Gender Medicine (SEGM, 2023) and Genspect, 2023a, Genspect, 2023b have formed in reaction to GAC. According to a Yale School of Medicine report, both groups have spread “biased and unscientific content” about GAC and that SEGM is “without apparent ties to mainstream scientific or professional organizations”
, and has a supplemental table of "fringe medical organizations" that lists SEGM.[77] The other ref supporting the statement is a CBC investigation citing multiple researchers and discussing SEGM's pseudoscience and calling them a "fringe group".[78] Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 17:41, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Sean Waltz O'Connell
editI have experienced ongoing issues with Raladic’s behavior, including edit warring and stonewalling, for over three months in the article about WPATH. Initially, Raladic reverted my edit, which was supported by two highly reliable sources—The Economist and The New York Times—with a misleading edit summary claiming there was a consensus not to include the information.
The Economist reported that WPATH leaders interfered with the systematic reviews they commissioned from Johns Hopkins University. Additionally, both The Economist and The New York Times reported that WPATH removed minimum age requirements for treatment of children under pressure from a health official.
I raised the issue on the talk page, asking where this supposed consensus was reached.
Raladic kept insisting that the topic had been discussed and argued that the information about WPATH should be placed in another article, not the WPATH article itself: [81]
I pointed out that a consensus could not have been reached on information that only became available after prior discussions on the talk page were concluded. This indicated that Raladic’s claims were unfounded. Subsequently, Raladic shifted their argument, stating that criticism of WPATH should not be included due to WP:NOTNEWS, and asserting that a smear campaign against WPATH existed in mainstream media.
I brought the issue to WP:NPOVN.
There, Raladic argued that the story reported by The New York Times in June 2024 about Dr. Levine advocating for removing age limits was already addressed in the Standards of Care for the Health of Transgender and Gender Diverse People (hereafter "SOC") article by referring to The New York Times' 2022 report. However, this was not possible since the June 2024 information did not exist in 2022, and Dr. Levine was not mentioned in the SOC article at the time of Raladic's posting.
I sought advice from Firefangledfeathers on how to handle this.
Raladic strongly opposed including the removal of age limits in the WPATH article, insisting it belonged in the SOC article. When I added The New York Times report to the Standards of Care for the Health of Transgender and Gender Diverse People article, Raladic reverted it: [86]
I initiated another lengthy discussion on the talk page:
With Firefangledfeathers mediating, the information was finally included. However, The Economist's report was omitted because Raladic argued it was the sole source for the claim about WPATH suppressing the Johns Hopkins reviews. Later, The BMJ, a peer-reviewed journal, corroborated The Economist's findings. After discussion, multiple users (at least six) agreed on a compromise wording that I introduced to the article. Raladic, however, twice reverted the consensus version ([88], [89]), replacing it with their own version that lacked consensus and relied on primary sources, disregarding reporting by The Economist and The BMJ.
As evident, Raladic has consistently engaged in stonewalling and edit warring on WPATH and related articles, obstructing the inclusion of critical reporting by reliable sources such as The New York Times, The Economist, The BMJ, and The Hill. Despite consensus among other editors, Raladic continues to revert others’ edits, ignoring the reliability of sources and the opinions of fellow contributors. Sean Waltz O'Connell (talk) 14:31, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
Another issue worth noting (previously overlooked in the above due to the lengthy discourse that's been going on in the aforementioned WPATH article), is that Raladic, along with others, made claims that challenge the reliability of sources. For example, during the WP:NPOVN discussion, it was argued that every Economist article should be classified as an opinion piece. This issue was then brought to WP:RSP, [90] where the community rejected this assertion. Currently, Raladic argues that every investigative report qualifies as a primary source, even though Wikipedia's guidelines do not support such a classification. [91] Furthermore, this user has perpetuated a possible BLP violation, claiming that a journalist from The BMJ has a "vested interest" without providing reliable evidence to substantiate this accusation. These claims seem aimed at rejecting The BMJ's peer-reviewed report that addressed WPATH's suppression of evidence contrary to its policies. Sean Waltz O'Connell (talk) 20:45, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Colin
editI'm concerned to see the comment below about a logged warning for edit warring on both sides. That needs evidence of a pattern of behaviour, not one example plucked. If a single unwise revert was the standard, might as well give everyone a logged warning.
The issue here is largely down to Wikipedia's mechanism for working out what is a reliable source. Void has swiftly learned the rules and finds sources that meet WP:MEDRS and WP:V. Raladic has not. Raladic's working definition of a "reliable source" is "anything I can use to discredit sources that say inconvenient things" and "is not a reliable source" amounts to nothing more than "says things I disagree with". This is the very definition of an WP:ACTIVIST: "flexible approach to policy interpretation, depending on whether or not it aligns with the activist's". So we get blogs and random PDFs used to discredit systematic reviews in the highest tier of medical journals. We get endless "guilt by association" with the bogeyman of SEGM used repeatedly. As VIR notes, a paper written by over 20 international academics, published in the SAGE journal "Human Systems" is misleadingly described as "published by SEGM" in an attempt to discredit. This edit, claims a paper written by two authors represents the consensus views of "medical researchers". That's pretty typical. Those two people agree with Raladic therefore it's a reliable and authoritative source. This approach to source is not unique to Raladic (see Talk:Cass Review#See Also where User:WhatamIdoing complains about "editors post non-existent, made-up rules" wrt SEGM). But the fact that there are other editors with similar issues should not stop us dealing with this one.
Both WP:FRINGE and "anti-trans" is pushed on talk and in articles to describe anyone who's model of trans healthcare is not aligned with Raladic's, even if that model or the research is supported by leading journals and several nation's healthcare experts. This is not an approach compatible with editing a contentious topic, which requires editors to write about views and people they disagree with at a level above a Twitter attack piece, and to permit nuance and an appreciation that "its complicated". The BLP violations are particularly concerning. As editors at J. K. Rowling (e.g. User:SandyGeorgia) know, we can't go around randomly inserting "anti-trans" into such articles. This edit that VIR lists, sums up this activist approach that is WP:NOTHERE.
If this was writing about global warming or vaccine safety or the efficacy of a cancer treatment, an editor taking this approach to sourcing, to discrediting sources simply for believing the Wrong Thing would have been removed long ago. I don't think Raladic's approach is compatible with editing this contentious topic. -- Colin°Talk 17:11, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
Wrt Vanamonde93's "I have yet to see evidence in this discussion of that occurring" well it's in the links and on this very page. Maybe you just have to think about it a bit more. Have you got an explanation for this edit. It is clearly misleading as I explained. That SEGM is supposedly "an anti-trans hate group" is unsourced, but also doesn't change whether the article written by 20 international academics (who as VIR says, almost all have no link to that group) is reliable or not. It simply isn't one of our sourcing tests any more than "Drives a Tesla therefore is as evil as Musk" forms any part of our assessments. WP:FRINGE is about extreme ideas, not about organisations (who have many beliefs), nor about papers that are published in Archives of Disease in Childhood or the BMJ or reports that are accepted by the healthcare experts of England and Scotland. SLPC has its qualities and limitations but it is no more qualified to discredit a systematic review in the BMJ than Guide Dogs for the Blind.
The repeated "anti-trans" claims are no more worthy of Wikipedia's time than to suggest that because NICE determine some anti-cancer drug lacks evidence of efficacy and has evidence of harm, that NICE is a pro-cancer organisation. It really is that level of argumentation we are dealing with here. You asked for sourcing of "anti-trans" but that's not how it works. You don't start with a claim you want to make and go find a source to back it up. That way would end up with our lead saying "Elon Musk is the worlds richest man-baby", something eminently sourcable to people who don't like him. And proving a negative is hard, because people don't go around writing "Elon Musk is not the world's richest man-baby". What do sources that are attempting neutrality say? What do sources that aren't fighting legal battles against bigoted politicians say? Wikipedia is not an activist blog and we do not assess our sources according to the prejudices and hatred of social media and the blogsphere. Sourcing in a contentious topic is hard, and it needs editors who are prepared to put their prejudices and hatred aside. That is not in evidence here. -- Colin°Talk 21:33, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Evathedutch
editI agree with Colin's concern the most based on what I've seen on the WPATH and SEGM pages. For example with respect to the "fringe medical organization" claim here It made me think about the label "fringe" within a contentious topic. I find that people go around saying "they're fringe" when they disagree more than people go around saying "they're not fringe" when they agree. So what is reasonable counter evidence that an org is not fringe? We have to go back to what the WP:FRINGE bar is for fringe. WP says "In Wikipedia parlance, the term fringe theory is used in a broad sense to describe an idea that departs significantly from the prevailing views or mainstream views in its particular field." The fact that SCOTUS heard a case related to youth gender medicine, and the Economist quoted a SEGM representative in their coverage of it, is very strong evidence to me that SEGM doesn't meet the WP:FRINGE bar for fringe. https://www.economist.com/united-states/2024/12/02/a-big-transgender-rights-case-heads-to-americas-supreme-court
- Most concerning was when Raladic overpowered a WPATH edit after very strong sources were presented and several editors came to a reasonable consensus. Raladic says consensus doesn't matter in very selective ways, consistent with WP:ACTIVIST.
- PS I will bring the above to the respective talk pages as well. Evathedutch (talk) 19:24, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
- Clerking note: I've moved the above into its own section, in line with how AE is formatted. The above was originally posted as an inline reply to Colin's 10 December statement; see Special:Diff/1262314526. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 20:35, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
Statement by WhatamIdoing
editI was pinged and have glanced over this. Vanamonde93, I believe the answer to your question is that Wikipedia editors in this area do not operate via the Wikipedia:Amnesia test, but instead begin with certain ground truths in mind, so that the reliability of a source can be determined by comparing the source's POV against the ground truth. So, e.g., we know that "Organization X" is anti-trans, so sources that say they're anti-trans/pseudoscientific/bad can be tentatively assumed to be reliable until proven otherwise, and sources that say they're researchers/pro-science/pro-children/good can be assumed to be unreliable.
This sounds worse than it really is; in fact, we all do this. It's much faster and more efficient to say "Hmm, supports an obvious conspiracy theory – yeah, we can just dump this one" than to do a full evaluation of every source. But when the real world has strong divisions, we often end up with some editors whose ground truth is that the subject is "X" in other conflict with other editors whose ground truth is that the subject is "not-X", and there is no opportunity for compromise. They will never agree on which sources are reliable, because a source's reliability is determined by the source's POV, and there can only be one Right™ POV. Consider, e.g,. whether the Liancourt Rocks belong to Korea or to Japan. The reliable sources are the ones that agree with my POV, and the unreliable sources are the ones that agree with your POV. In this subject area, one of the ground truths held by one side is that WPATH's current recommendations represent a pro-trans and pro-science position. This is not entirely unreasonable, except that we then extend it to say that any person or organization that disagrees in any way is both anti-trans and pseudoscientific by definition.
The community is not set up to manage this kind of conflict well. In the past, we have reduced these conflict either by suppressing the POV whose editors are least suited to playing our games (see, e.g., WP:GAMERGATE) or by developing a durable supermajority against the minority POV (as we did, e.g., in WP:ARBSCI). I don't think we should take either of these approaches in this subject area, but we don't have many other tools left. But AE admins can rejoice: solving this problem is outside your remit. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:52, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Simonm223
edit@Vanamonde93: regarding the description of the LGB alliance as anti-trans there are quite a few sources presently in LGB Alliance that support the description
- The Times Cites founder Simon Fanshawe on the founding of LGB Alliance "He and 21 other signatories were concerned support for transgender policies, such as allowing primary school children to change their gender identity too quickly, are harming gay people and undermining women’s rights."
- BBC Reports on the LGB Alliance opposing bans on Conversion Therapy "The letter was coordinated by the LGB Alliance, which describes itself as promoting the rights of lesbians, bisexuals and gay men. It expressed concern that "the current push to ban conversion therapy... is being used as political cover to promote an affirmation-only approach to gender identity"."
- The Guardian describes one of the founders of the LGB alliance, apparently in an attempt to defend themselves against anti-trans claims saying, "The organisation LGB Alliance was founded to “prevent the dissemination of the lie of gender identity”" And, let's be honest, calling Gender identity a lie is WP:SKYBLUE anti-Trans rhetoric.
- Pink News says of the LGB Alliance's attempt to stall or prevent gender recognition laws, "The LGB Alliance has been warned by the UK’s advertising watchdog over “potentially misleading” claims in two paid-for newspaper adverts in Scotland. The Advertising Standards Authority (ASA) said it received a number of complaints about the newspaper advert, called ‘Press Pause on the Gender Recognition Bill’. The ASA said the anti-trans group’s advert was “potentially misleading” because “the legislation it refers to is still under consultation”."
- In Journal of Gender Studies, K. Guyan says "LGB Alliance (2019) (a UK trans-exclusionary LGB organization) argued the NRS proposal 'would suggest that other sexual orientations exist beyond attraction to the opposite sex, same sex or both sexes' (p. 2) and requested that the census not include the term 'Other sexual orientation' as a response option"
- In Policy Studies Journal, Turnbull-Dugarte and McMillan say "The case of the LGB Alliance charity is of note. The trans-exclusionary position of the organization engendered significant debate among the LGBT+ community in Scotland."
- In Metaphilosophy, Monique says "some trans‐exclusionary LGB movements have begun to form around TERF ideology (for example, the LGB Alliance in the United Kingdom and the Red LGB movement in Spain)"
- In International Journal of Sociology, McLean says "Furthermore, the LGB Alliance has argued that ‘attempts to compel women to believe that male genitals can be female is a form of sexual assault, an attack on the rights of lesbians and a threat to their very existence’" This statement is housed in a section of the essay called "Anti-trans tropes".
So, basically, what we have here is an organization founded to exclude trans people (it's literally in the name) that advocates against gender identification laws and against conversion therapy bans and that regularly issues statements that make it clear the organization's focus is anti-trans activities. It's actually been very frustrating trying to navigate two editors with a long history of behaviour that looks a lot like tag-teaming [92] consistently pov pushing that this organization and its founders are not anti-trans despite this broad preponderance of evidence including several WP:BESTSOURCES such as the International Journal of Sociology. I think the frustration felt at such antics should, at the very least, buy Raladic some grace. Or possibly even result in a boomerang. Simonm223 (talk) 18:12, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Evathedutch I suspect one of the good admins observing this page is going to instruct you to refactor you comment so that it doesn't appear to be part of Colin's. Might want to get a head start on that. Notwithstanding that I think you're missing an important part of WP:FRINGE's definition: "departs significantly from the prevailing views or mainstream views in its particular field". Neither the Supreme Court of the United States, nor the Economist is appropriate as a basis to adjudicate whether a medical organization is fringe. That would fall to WP:MEDRS compliant sources ideally but, at the very least, would come from reliable sources in medicine, psychology and sociology to make such an adjudication. Simonm223 (talk) 19:31, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
- There are a couple of issues with "fringe" for which it shouldn't be based on testimonial adjudication alone
- 1) People can and do say "fringe" more easily than people who say "not fringe", so a pure source on source only scale is tilted to begin with
- 2) What people mean when they say fringe may not meet the bar for what wikipedia means for WP:FRINGE That's way we should take other indications for evidence
- Also landscapes of contentious topics can change so we should give less weight to dated sources.
- Of course SCOTUS is not there to adjudicate if SEGM is fringe, but the Economist tacitly adjudicate SEGM as "not fringe" by including their point of view where its particular field is central to the SCOTUS case. I am not sure it falls under WP:MEDRS. But if even if I take it in that direction, I would make the same #1/#2 case but the evidence would be that they commissioned a systematic review (SR) of evidence with McMaster University which is known as the birthplace of evidence-based medicine. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/39252149/ Again, McMaster is not going to say "SEGM is not fringe", and its unreasonable to expect that, but the action of the SR demonstrates that. If you look on the WP:MEDRS page it shows how SRs are at the top of the pyramid. Now, if we go full WP:MEDRS direction, that many sources on that article have to be reevaluated (I don't think sociology counts as medical). This brings me back to supporting Colins point about Raladic engaging in WP:ACTIVIST behavior by invoking WP policy selectively when it suits ones objective. Evathedutch (talk) 21:49, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Sweet6970is of course correct I should have notified them and I apologize for the oversight. I'm rather sick today and it appears I missed a rather important process there. Again, apologies for the mistake. Simonm223 (talk) 22:26, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
Statement by DanielRigal
editSure, that second AfD was a bit overkeen but it is hard not to see this report as an attempt to take an opponent off the field. The suggestion of a boomerang is not unreasonable but I'd rather that Raladic chill out a little bit and Void chill out a big bit and a half so that nobody needs to get sanctioned. --DanielRigal (talk) 18:28, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
Statement by GoodDay
editI think it best, if both parties took a 3-month break from the contentious topic-in-question. GoodDay (talk) 20:24, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
Statement by (LunaHasArrived)
editI wanted to point out that over the last couple of months Raledic has made a huge effort to Wikipedia (going back 2000 contribs on her page takes you to Nov 5th) including the effort of moving the LGBT pages to LGBTQ+ following consensus. I would like to suggest that any sanction take into account how it would effect her area of editing was she contributes massively. LunaHasArrived (talk) 21:37, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
Statement by (Sweet6970)
editI see that I have been accused here, above, by Simonm223 of tag-teaming
, though without being notified of this. This is probably the discussion which Simonm223 is referring to:[93] WP:TAGTEAM includes It is often difficult to tell the difference between tag teaming and consensus-based editing. Consequently, some editors that are failing to gain consensus for their preferred changes will inappropriately accuse every editor that opposes them of being part of a "tag team".
The recent complaint brought by Raladic at ANI may be relevant background here. [94]
Yes, I often agree with Void if removed – that’s because he is usually right. (Or to put it another way, he often agrees with me because I am usually right.)
I have come into contact with Raladic in various gensex articles. We often disagree. But Raladic’s behaviour over the Allison Bailey article is more than a content dispute – it is disruptive (and rather odd) behaviour. As VIR has mentioned, there was a disagreement about whether Bailey should be in the category of ‘Anti-transgender activist’; she is not described in that way by reliable sources, so this goes against WP:CAT. I initiated a discussion on this.[95] Raladic did not take part in the discussion, but unilaterally changed the wording, without providing any source [96]. At the same time, she proposed the article for deletion. So there is a contradiction here: Bailey is ‘known’ for founding LGB Alliance, but at the same time she is not notable enough for an article. The deletion discussion was closed as keep and rename to the case name. [97] She (Raladic) then immediately opened a new proposal to delete the new/renamed article, despite the clear ‘verdict’ to keep and rename the article to the legal case. This is disruptive and a waste of editors’ time. The impression I get is that Raladic is so opposed to Allison Bailey that if she is not described as an anti-transgender activist, then she (Raladic) wants Wikipedia not to mention her at all. This is not sensible, neutral, editing. Sweet6970 (talk) 21:40, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
editResult concerning Raladic
edit- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- Raladic, how much of an extension are you looking for? Extraordinary Writ (talk) 23:39, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
- Raladic is granted an extension to 750 words. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 00:43, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
- I don't think very much of this is actionable: the disagreements about whether things are FRINGE, secondary, NPOV, etc. are fundamentally content disputes, and what VIR describes as misrepresentation or misleading comments looks more like reasonable disagreements or ambiguities to me. I do think everyone here could be a bit more careful with the revert button, particularly when it comes to reïnstating bold changes without discussion. That's true of Raladic (change, revert, adding it back without discussion; change, revert, adding it back while discussion is ongoing), but it's also true of VIR (change, revert, adding it back without discussion). While WP:BRD is not policy, it does reflect best practice in this area; once your addition has been contested by revert, it's time for discussion then, not for trying to gain the advantage with another revert. Besides that informal note, I'm not seeing a need for any action here at this time. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 01:57, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
- I'd be more inclined to go with a logged warning for edit warring on both sides, and if it keeps up after that maybe step up to enforced BRD for those editors. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:39, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
- Void if removed, should be sorted. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:47, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
- I agree with my colleagues that most of this isn't actionable - whether a source is fringe or not is something the editor body needs to reach a consensus on, and talk page discussions are the way to do that. There are a few diffs above that are potentially concerning, but I cannot see the sources in question. I would like to hear from Raladic about what evidence supports the "anti-trans advocacy" claim here, and the "fringe medical organization" claim here (I cannot access the sources: I would like to see a quote, to determine whether sources are being misrepresented). Vanamonde93 (talk) 17:11, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
- WhatamIdoing is obviously correct in saying that many users are not setting aside their preconceived POVs in this topic, but that in and of itself is not sanctionable. Ignoring our content and behavioral policies when it is convenient to a given POV, on the other hand, is sanctionable. A lot of the evidence presented above is still not what I would consider actionable. In a topic as polarized as this one, arguments over the reliability of sources are inevitable. I agree with Colin above that discounting a source solely for its POV isn't appropriate, but I have yet to see evidence in this discussion of that occurring. That said, I do see several instances of Raladic pushing the envelope. This edit in particular bothers me: it is very obviously an attempt to discredit the letter in a manner that no source is doing. That edit is partially mitigated by Raladic's own subsequent modification, but it is part of a tendency to use the strongest possible language for one set of parties in this conflict. This is also evident in the other examples I asked for evidence on above: the sources evidently support language in the same general direction as what Raladic added, but they have chosen to use the most strident language possible, which is the opposite of the approach this topic calls for. I would log a warning for battleground conduct, including edit-warring, for Raladic specifically, though I can see a case for logging an edit-warring warning for VIR as well. Vanamonde93 (talk) 20:16, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
M.Bitton
editThis request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning M.Bitton
edit- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- XDanielx (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 07:55, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- M.Bitton (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
I'll limit this to WP:CIVIL related issues for now, since they're easiest to evaluate with minimal context.
- 2024-12-09
xDanielx being disingenuous again (what they mean by "no explanation" is "no explanation that they agree with")
- 2024-12-08
casting aspersions to justify your disruptive editing is about as low as it gets ... this is extremely disingenuous ... made-up rules and demands to satisfy you
- 2024-12-08
please don't make-up another rule ... maybe that's because you only see what you want to see
(partly struck per admin request) - 2024-12-01, 2024-12-01
Wikipedia is not a collection of every piece of alleged garbage
- 2024-11-18
When someone keeps misrepresenting the sources (again and again), then I will rightly assume disingenuousness
- 2024-11-18
I'm starting to question your motives
- 2024-11-18
Please refrain from repeating your lies
(edited toYou're being extremely disingenuous. You misrepresented the sources (clearly to push a POV)
- 2024-11-15
I don't take lessons from those who misrepresent the sources and edit war over WP:OR
- 2024-11-15
please don't attribute your nonsense to me (this is totally unacceptable)
- 2024-11-15
Bobfrombrockley is busy adding whatever garbage they can find
- 2024-11-15
you've been very busy adding whatever garbage you could find to the article
- 2024-11-15
Do you expect me to explain to you what "freedom of expression" is?
- 2024-11-14
I'm done wasting my time with this nonsense ... Your self-serving opinion is irrelevant
- 2024-11-12 offensive humor
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
I'm not aware of CTOP sanctions. The block log seems to show four blocks, but they're not that recent and I'm not sure how relevant they are.
- If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)
- Was a subject of a previous ARBPIA AE request.
- Made a couple other statements in ARBPIA AE requests: 2024-12-06, 2024-12-08
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
Another 15 diffs were (rightfully) removed by an admin for exceeding the diff limit as well as falling outside PIA scope; just mentioning for transparency. They might be relevant on a different forum but admittedly not here. — xDanielx T/C\R 16:37, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
@Theleekycauldron: I planned to file something after the "garbage" comments (about BobFromBrockley) on Talk:Al-Manar. I reconsidered after being surprised by M.Bitton's diplomatic compromise there. Admittedly M.Bitton's comments in the thread above prompted me to reconsider again, but that wasn't about the fact that I might receive a warning there (irrespective of M.Bitton's participation); it was just about me personally being on the receiving end of some personal attacks. I don't really follow why me being emotionally affected by the conduct would affect the legitimacy of the report. Most of the incivility was directed at other users, and letting this conduct continue wouldn't seem fair to them. — xDanielx T/C\R 16:41, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning M.Bitton
editStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by M.Bitton
editNot content with edit warring, assuming bad faith and casting aspersions (see #xDanielx), they now decided to go even lower and file a retaliatory report. M.Bitton (talk) 09:56, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Vanamonde93 and Ealdgyth: I just want to draw your attention to their aspersions casting
tag-team revert
(their edit summary, while striking it, leaves no doubt about they believe) and the fact that they falsely accused me: of ignoring their ping (when I was logged out) and reverting without an explanation (when, in fact, I did provide one). M.Bitton (talk) 18:04, 10 December 2024 (UTC)- @Ealdgyth: I agree and will make sure that doesn't happen in the future, regardless of what's coming the other way. I should know better than let myself take the bait, but lesson learnt nonetheless. M.Bitton (talk) 18:14, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
editResult concerning M.Bitton
edit- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- This is shamelessly and obviously a retaliatory filing, and I'm leaning towards a one- or two-way interaction ban to stop the back-and-forth sniping. But I'd still draw uninvolved admins' attention to this thread and ask what their thoughts are. That seems like pretty battleground-y behavior to me. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 14:27, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
- I see it as a bit retaliatory, but we do need to stop this sniping, especially at AE and other such venues. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:36, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, this is retaliatory, and at the same time, M. Bitton's language is not acceptable. Bad behavior should be addressed at an administrator noticeboard, or in a civil post to a user talk page, not with what SFR accurately describes as sniping. I would log a warning for casting aspersions. Vanamonde93 (talk) 17:15, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
- I agree with SFR and Vanamonde93 that the language used does not help the topic area at all. I don't know if M.Bitton's had a long history of logged warnings before (I'm a bit busy trying to get the farm ready for an artic clipper coming in) but I'm fine with a logged warning. But the filer should be aware that they need to also try to avoid retaliatory-filing look in the future... Ealdgyth (talk) 17:48, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not happy about Daniel's behavior (but will try to find time to look at it in the earlier filing to avoid getting this one off track) but, M.Bitton, your comments are not just sub-par, but not at all what editors should be directing at others. An acknowledgment of that and working to avoid that in the future is something you need to seriously consider if you're not going to end up sanctioned in the future. Ealdgyth (talk) 18:08, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
Freestyler Scientist
editThis request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Freestyler Scientist
edit- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- KoA (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 16:36, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Freestyler Scientist (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Genetically_modified_organisms#1RR_imposed
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- Dec 8 Initial large-scale change, advised of 1RR shortly after this.[98]
- Dec 10 Restoration of content, slow edit warring
- Dec 10 2nd restoration on same day. Came to my talk page to claim this only counted as one (has been given guidance on 1RR 4 times as of now, hence coming here).[99]
- If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)
- Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on Dec. 8 (see the system log linked to above).
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
This is a new account and WP:SPA, so I'm already getting a bit of WP:DUCK red flag with this account mentioning policy and the walls of text in a tendentious manner on the talk page, but I don't have additional suggestions for a WP:SPI right now.
The main issue here is the obviously 1RR violation by this account and ignoring the warnings not to restore the large-scale changes they made. One revert today would have still been slow edit warring in violation of 1RR, but two is clearly crossing the line. The article itself is somewhat the GMO equivalent of Andrew Wakefield and vaccines in terms of WP:FRINGE, in this case, claims that GMOs and glyphosate cause cancer despite MEDRS sources saying the opposite. Sometimes we get editors looking to WP:RGW that create timesinks in this topic between edit warring and behavior, so help would be appreciated.
Underlying this, there's a sort of WP:BLUDGEON/combative approach with this new account on the talk page that blows up talk sections in size to the point even I had trouble catching up with the discussion (bludgeon-style comments by Freestyler Scientist vs. succinct responses by others). When issues with their edits came up, they'll claim the comment wasn't legitimate or mistaken followed up by repeated Could I assume that you have withdrawn?
Then there's this comment Every point you contested, even I disagreed, had been removed from the edition. I don't see reason everywhere explained.
[100] The gist of what I'm getting from the talk page is that this account seemed justified in edit warring because they claim every single point about their massive edits were not addressed on the talk page in detail. There definitely is a tone that they're going to charge ahead anyways without hearing the issues with their edits. There's also a WP:ADVOCACY angle where they're primarily pulling from sources that have a financial conflict of interest in trying to claim glyphosate causes cancer and that it's ok do that because the article supposedly has tons of COI already (it doesnt).[101]
I mentioned socks above because I had been dealing with some following me in topics I edit in the last few days, so if this is a legitimate account, a controversial topic like the GMO/pesticide area doesn't seem like a good place for them to learn the ropes with the combination of edit warring and bludgeon/overbearingness. KoA (talk) 16:36, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
- Vanamonde93, the formal notification of 1RR listed in the AE template was on Dec. 8, two days before today's edits. They also would have seen the edit notice when you try to edit the article in their very first edit or the talk page. So at least 2-3 times before their edits today. Add in another time during my revert today before AE and the final straw before this AE when they came to my talk page still clearly asserting they didn't violate 1RR.[[102]]. If it had only been the 1RR issue in isolation, I would have tried to work with them a bit more before coming here, but there's enough exasperation with WP:IDHT at this point that I had to ask for help here. KoA (talk) 17:41, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
- Ealdgyth I definitely get that based on 1RR in isolation, indef would be overkill. A warning might work, but new editor coming in with an advocacy/WP:FRINGE push like this gives me pause as such editors often become timesinks for regulars in the topic. For something super narrow, maybe a p-block just for Seralini affair? They could easily move to other glyphosate related topics though, so a next step up could be a glyphosate topic ban that would really just be a handful of pages. That's as far as I'd go with any sanctions for realistic options admins might want to consider. I think the key thing with any sanctions (including a warning) though is the message to step back from controversial topics like this and learn the ropes in other areas first. KoA (talk) 18:06, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Freestyler Scientist
editStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Freestyler Scientist
editScottishFinnishRadish there is currently no version to revert here. Also, I want to disagree, I'm writing my statement just now. Freestyler Scientist (talk) 16:52, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
- 1RR Violation, (I was aware about this policy, so no excuses).
- The first of my edit was on Dec. 8. It was reverted by @Bon courage with the reason that I cited unreliable source as secondary, made huge change, and deleted of significant material.
- To sum up quickly, those 1) were primary sources citing along secondary sources that discussed them. In this discussion, there was also in discussion 2) an argument of removing significant part of text (it dalse claim, that part was moved), and 3) LeadBombing, and 4)(@KoA) citing (peer reviewed) articles, where authors have COI.
- After that discussion send second edit, I (1) removed citation of primary sources, to avoid conflict, (2) restored all phrases I removed, (3) Removed entirely part that was flagged as "LeadBombing" with citations (4).
- This edit was reverted again by @Bon courage who wrote: "Pretty much the same issues. Reverted"
- I reverted this revert (Wikipedia:Obversion) as an obvious WP:STONEWALLING.
- So there were two distinct editions, and one revert, so I wrote to @KoA assuming good faith, that I that that is a mistake.
- Why I think it is a case of WP:STONEWALLING?
- @Bon courage several times, after my reply to his objection, he added new, unexplained things, and also made several claims in the Talk page that were obviously wrong and easy to check, such as including some ref that I did not include, or removing "a significant part of the text" that was only moved one paragraph up. (There were more false claim, probably no need to list them here, they are in Talk). I tried to get a consensus by simply asking which of his objections were still valid, but that was ignored. There have been accusations of disruptive, tendentious or TLDR editing, tendencies towards edit war lockdowns, and also borderline personal attacks such as: "That seems like good content, in contrast to yours". When I received unspecified or just false objection, it is not surprising that my responses were longer (like in Brandolini's law).
- In summary,
- I really tried to find out which passages were objectionable, and got only brief responses, including false claims about the sources I'd used. Where there were objections, such as @KoA pointing out that some articles have COI, I removed the entire section containing them and the entire claim/sentence based on them. After my second edition was reverted with only with "Pretty much the same issues" summary, I've obvert, and it was only single reversion I've made.
- Should I respond to WP:FRINGE, WP:ADVOCACY, WP:SPI and WP:DUCK accusations? Freestyler Scientist (talk) 21:01, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Bon courage
editIt's a violation in the face of warnings. There may be some change that would improve the article that draws on the material being proposed, but I don't think these edits are it at all, and edit-warring is not the way to go.
Also I suspect socking, based on an apparently oven-ready passing knowledge of Wikipedia norms and PAGs. Bon courage (talk) 17:35, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
editResult concerning Freestyler Scientist
edit- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- Freestyler Scientist, please self-revert so we can close this with a warning. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:43, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
- The second revert was undone by KoA prior to this report being filed. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 16:57, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
- In that case, I'll wait to see how they misunderstand 1rr and try to remedy that. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:08, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
- The second revert was undone by KoA prior to this report being filed. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 16:57, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
- This is a clear 1RR violation, but this is an account with 18 edits: can someone show me evidence that they were aware of 1RR before they were reverted for violating 1RR? Vanamonde93 (talk) 17:17, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
- Also noting that I examined the history of that article, and I see no immediate basis to check for socks. I am not ruling out sockpuppetry, but absent evidence, they need to be treated as a new user. Vanamonde93 (talk) 17:19, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
- This edit on the new user's talk predates the 1RR violation. Whether they understood what a revert is or not, I'm leaning towards they probably don't grasp that concept quite yet. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 19:11, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
- I see that the GMO CT notification included a 1RR warning, but per my colleagues below I'm betting they failed to understand it. A warning is appropriate. Vanamonde93 (talk) 19:21, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
- KoA - would you be okay with a warning, given that this appears to be a new editor (assuming good faith and all that) with low double digits of edits? I do understand the wanting someone else to make it clear to them that their behavior isn't good (and thus IDHT) so I'm not dinging you for bringing this here, but I'm not quite ready to jump to an indefinite block or something just yet...Ealdgyth (talk) 17:51, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
- KoA wrote above that
the formal notification of 1RR listed in the AE template was on Dec. 8, two days before today's edits
, and it was present in this edit on December 9. I am, however, willing to believe that the new account genuinely doesn't understand how we count reverts—I think we should close this with a warning and with a good explanation to the new account regarding how we count reverts. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 19:11, 10 December 2024 (UTC) - Freestyler Scientist seems to think that this edit wasn't a revert because it wasn't identical to the previous edit. In fact, a revert is defined as any edit "that reverses or undoes the actions of other editors, in whole or in part", and this was certainly a revert in part. I think this confusion is understandable and am fine with a warning for the time being. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 22:26, 10 December 2024 (UTC)