Wikipedia talk:In the news

Reminder: RfC on In the news criteria

The section created by Voorts has rolled off, but I'd like to make it known again that there is an ongoing RFC regarding potential ITN criteria amendments, now under a new link at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/In the news criteria amendments. DarkSide830 (talk) 00:41, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

• I strongly encourage anyone interested in ITN to take a look at this one, as one of the proposals includes shutting down ITN for good ✈ mike_gigs ^talk_contribs 13:15, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

  Am I the only one who no longer follows what's going on at that thread / RFC? There is a whole host of "Oppose" votes, which I understand are for those proposals. Is this RFC now discussing shutting down ITN? Ktin (talk) 01:25, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

No, that was a proposal added early on, proposal 3 to shut down ITN. The RFC has not changed scope. Natg 19 (talk) 02:53, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Bump DarkSide830 (talk) 19:19, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Bump again just in case. DarkSide830 (talk) 16:22, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Elections

Currently three out of four ITN blurbs are election results and there are six nominations altogether for Bulgaria, Georgia, Japan, Lithuania, Mozambique and Uzbekistan. And that's not including the US elections.

It's my impression that elections are often held at this time because it's after the harvest. When there's a big flurry of them, perhaps we should list them in a compact form like RD? Andrew🐉(talk) 09:45, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

I had a similar idea for the Nobel Prizes a couple of years ago, and I agree that something should be done in similar cases.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 14:39, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Support, this is a good idea (for elections and for the Nobels) to "batch list" them. Natg 19 (talk) 16:28, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Also agree for both elections and Nobel Prizes. It could be something like this, with the four (or five, or six) more recent election blurbs:

• Recent elections:
  • Lithuania (parliamentary)
  • Bulgaria (parliamentary)
  • Japan (general)
  • Georgia (parliamentary)

I thought about adding the winners, but for cases like Bulgaria or Japan where there is no clear winner, it wouldn't necessarily be desirable. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 16:44, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose grouping the nobels makes sense as they are highly correlated events by one organization. National elections are individually distinct events and makes no sense to simply them down. We just have to recognize that we get groupings of these about once or twice every few years. Masem (t) 18:09, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Recent deaths and ongoing events are individually distinct but we still list them together on one line. What's the difference? Andrew🐉(talk) 18:23, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

2024 is 'the year of elections'. It has the most elections the world has ever seen and this doesn't happen always. ExclusiveEditor _{Notify Me!} 18:02, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose It's completely unclear as to what constitutes "a big flurry", who decides what "a big flurry" is, and how that decision is made. Furthermore, it would be incredibly likely that Americans would seek to make their elections a special case deserving a blurb outside the batching process, even though they will take place shortly "at this time after the harvest". Chrisclear (talk) 17:34, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

• Stats List of elections in 2024 says "The year 2024 is notable for the large number of elections being held worldwide ... [and] has been called the year of elections." Looking at the number of times each month appears in that list, the distribution is:

• January = 9
• February = 16
• March = 11
• April = 17
• May = 24
• June = 28
• July = 7
• August = 5
• September = 15
• October = 32
• November = 23
• December = 5

So, there's clearly some seasonality with peaks in May/June and October/November.

Andrew🐉(talk) 18:21, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for providing the above data, it is interesting background information. However my specific questions about batching (who and how the decision is made) remain unanswered. Furthermore, suppose this proposal were to proceed (which I oppose), would the US elections next week be considered part of the batching process? If no, why not? Chrisclear (talk) 22:20, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

The "after the harvest theory" needs to be tempered by the fact that autumn in the northern hemisphere is spring in the southern hemisphere. Also, in a lot of countries with British traditions, elections are held at a time chosen by the government. HiLo48 (talk) 22:25, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

I would recommend another criteria for meeting ITNR, such as the nation's GDP being in the top 25. Kcmastrpc (talk) 22:29, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Man would that leave out Ireland because a lot of people would oppose that... Howard the Duck (talk) 23:00, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

• One concern for "batch listing" is that there may not be enough room to "feature" the winner of an election (or a major political shift), as we do now. But I like the idea to vary the featured stories, and not fill the box with the same kind of story. Natg 19 (talk) 22:49, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose - I understand the concern, but I think the current situation is anomalous and will resolve itself fairly soon. GenevieveDEon (talk) 09:47, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

@Chrisclear: it would be incredibly likely that Americans would seek to make their elections a special case deserving a blurb outside the batching process What makes you think that? Genuinely curious, it seems that you have tangible data/examples for this, so I would like to see them. At your earliest convenience, please. _{Duly signed,} ⛵ WaltClipper -(talk) 18:59, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Your last sentence "At your earliest convenience, please" is redundant, because, as you would be aware, I am a volunteer, and all contributions to Wikipedia, including those on talk page discussions are made at my earliest convenience and according to no fixed timetable. I'd encourage you to be a bit more civil and avoid comments with a poor underlying tone.

With that out of the way, the answer to your question "What makes you think that?" is simply common sense, based on the long-standing underlying bias of some editors in favour of Americentric topics. Most recently, before 11am UTC on 5 November, before voting even commenced in most (nearly all) locations in the US, the US election article had been nominated once for ITN, and nominated a second time when another editor had the common sense to close the first nomination. What makes it even more puzzling, is that according to the page history, it appears that the editor who proposed the article the second time, was the very same editor who proposed the batching process in the first place!

Has there ever been any other election nomination where the relevant article has been nominated twice before voting commences? Chrisclear (talk) 19:53, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

In lieu of your data, here's some data of my own: In sampling ten of your recent contributions to ITN/C, seven of them have been to complain about American bias on a nomination or that "such an event wouldn't be posted if it were from another country". In reminding me to be more civil, you are in the same post accusing other users of "long-standing underlying bias" which is itself a personal attack. It is OK to point out systemic bias but it is not OK to repetitively accuse other editors of such bias. Such assumptions go against good faith. _{Duly signed,} ⛵ WaltClipper -(talk) 15:01, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose Changing guidelines/policy in response to unusual or flukish events is typically an overreaction and often unhelpful. And while I concede that some elections may be of limited interest to our readers, many are going to be very much a matter of interest and should be blurbed. This strikes me as a good faith suggestion in response to a largely nonexistent issue. -Ad Orientem (talk) 16:33, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Proposal for addition to ITN/R

The winner of the Ballon d'Or should be a recurring item. Award is given to the best association football player in the world. Been awarded every year (except 2020) since 1956. Some have compared this award to MVP awards in leagues such as the NBA, but the coverage of this award is to all leagues in multiple countries such as England, France, Germany etc. and is not limited to a single league. Additionally, the ceremony itself attracts a large online viewership and receives coverage from sources such as the BBC, CNN, and Associated Press(AP). People have questioned about the importance of an award given by journalists, but nevertheless it has remained the most prestigious award in football. Also, it has been appearing in the Top 25 report since 2021. - TNM101 (chat) 13:43, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

We generally want to see it posted organically on WP:ITNC a few consecutive years before considering formalizing it on WP:ITNR. —Bagumba (talk) 13:53, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

This year it fell off the candidate page while consensus had not been developed but I agree with what you say. TNM101 (chat) 14:06, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

This shows a consensus "against" posting, or "no consensus" to post. Thus, no, this should not be ITNR, if it has not been posted recently. Natg 19 (talk) 21:59, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose generally need to have a consensus for 2-3 years to post them, which wasn't the case the past few years. Also, no point adding them to WP:ITNR if the article quality is almost never there- 2024 Ballon d'Or has a lead section and then no further text, but an extraordinary number of overdetailed tables (like "Ballon D'Or Detailed Votes by Country" table). If for a couple of years people generate quality articles for these events, and there is consensus to post them on notability, then and only then should it be considered for ITNR. Joseph2302 (talk) 16:48, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

  Realistically the featured page should be the recieptent, not the award page, similar to things like the Booker or Nobel prizes. There's no major ceremony (in contrast to Oscars or BAFTA) so the award page is going to be trivial. Masem (t) 22:23, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose and suggest closure per WP:SNOW. I don't know whether we need to discuss this at all when the winner of the Ballon d'Or hasn't been posted since 2012. As noted above, if this gets posted for 2-3 years in a row, then we can consider adding it to ITN/R.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 12:42, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

  This has only received two !votes and TNM101 is a relatively new contributor to ITN. We should ease up on the SNOW rationale for the sake of welcoming newcomers. _{Duly signed,} ⛵ WaltClipper -(talk) 18:36, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

  Sure, but newcomers should also learn how does the snow rationale work in practice.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 22:44, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

  It certainly doesn't work in this fashion. WP:SNOW by that page's own definition does not refer to immediately closing a discussion where obtaining support is likely to be a tall order. _{Duly signed,} ⛵ WaltClipper -(talk) 16:38, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

  That's not how WP:SNOW works. ExclusiveEditor _{Notify Me!} 17:59, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

RfC at WT:BLP

There is currently an RfC concerning a proposed change to WP:SUSPECT which if adopted could impact some nominations at ITNC. Interested editors are encouraged to join the discussion. -Ad Orientem (talk) 18:02, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

Update Baseball ITNR

The last update about the Baseball recurring items was sometime ago, since then baseball landscape changed a bit since then, i suggest the following updates to baseball list:

• First, the introduction of WBSC Premier12, it was created in 2015 as a new relevant baseball tournament (not replacing World Baseball Classic, but complementing it in a way similar to FIFA Confederations Cup), it was part of Olympic baseball qualification in 2019 and likely will be again for 2027, also is the tournament that gives most points for WBSC World Rankings, even more than WBC.
• Second, it seems that Japan Series was inserted due Asian Series, while the Asian Series is not existing anymore, i suggest to not only keep the Japan Series, but maybe insert the Korean Series as part of list akin to Association Football´s Big Five national leagues.

So, it would basically look like this:

• International Tournaments
  • World Baseball Classic
  • WBSC Premier12
• The following domestic championships:
  • World Series
  • Japan Series
  • Korean Series

Expected stories per year: 3 in non International tournament years, 4 in years with WBC or Premier12 Meganinja202 (talk) 09:15, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Typically items are expected to be posted a few consecutive years through regular WP:ITNC nomintations before considering for addition to ITNR. See #Proposal for addition to ITN/R (above). —Bagumba (talk) 09:43, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

• Strong oppose both changes. The WBSC Premier12 has only been held three times, the world's top players do not take part, and there's barely any interest from broadcasters or the media. The rationale offered for adding the Korea Series makes no sense at all, it's obscure even to baseball fans outside that country. A quick glance at our articles will demonstrate how little attention either competition receives. And finally, neither competition has been successfully nominated at ITN/C so I don't see why they should be on ITNR. Modest Genius ^talk 13:16, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose WBSC Premier12. It was not posted at ITN recently, and I have not heard of this event. Unsure about Korean Series. Natg 19 (talk) 17:36, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose addition ITNR is for when articles get nominated and posted multiple times- this doesn't have consensus to even post this edition. If anything, I would support removing Japan Series rather than adding lots more events Joseph2302 (talk) 19:09, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

  Japan Series appears to have been posted in each of the last 10 years.—Bagumba (talk) 19:27, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

  it was posted this year too Meganinja202 (talk) 10:54, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. WBSC Premier12 is not ITNR enough as per above. KBO League is the most popular league in South Korea (even more popular than their top-flight football league), but coverage of the Korean Series from outside South Korea may actually be even less than WBSC Premier12. This may change in a decade or so, but not yet for 2024. Howard the Duck (talk) 21:02, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Pathetic

I largely gave up contributing here a few months ago because of the appalling system (?) of posting items, but actually knowing the man led me to watch the nomination of the recent death of Ian Redpath. He was nominated four days ago. The nomination has had nothing but universal support, but it is still not posted. Please don't respond with excuses for our poor overworked Admins. Just fix the bloody system!!!! HiLo48 (talk) 04:14, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

What do you suggest, besides more active admins? I guess there could be a queue process. Also there is a tag {{@ITNA}} to ping the admins who usually post. Natg 19 (talk) 05:52, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

I looked right through all the instructions and found nothing about that. I suggest obviously simple noms, like the one I'm describing, could be addressed in seconds, not four days. Maybe a triage approach. HiLo48 (talk) 06:36, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

I didn't look at the article yet. But it looks like an admin just rejected posting of the RD for quality concerns. Natg 19 (talk) 06:39, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

A few days late! HiLo48 (talk) 08:23, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Looking at the page history, many tags were added at 07:36 2 Dec.[1] —Bagumba (talk) 10:56, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Sounds like the system worked as it should, then. _{Duly signed,} ⛵ WaltClipper -(talk) 13:40, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

No, because no negative comments appeared here. HiLo48 (talk) 00:05, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

+1  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 18:42, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Instead of huffing and puffing here, why didn't you contact an Admin on their Talk page, if this was so urgent for you? Khuft (talk) 21:31, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

It wasn't urgent for me. Don't misrepresent what I wrote. And don't try to make this about me. And how is one supposed to contact an Admin? Their posts aren't labelled as coming from Admins. HiLo48 (talk) 00:05, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

For not being about you, you sure are replying to your own thread an awful lot, not to mention drawing attention to your conduct by using invective ("pathetic", "appalling", "fix the bloody system", "excuses for our poor overworked admins") which isn't really needed to make your point. WP:CIV didn't cease to exist during the interim in which you "largely gave up contributing here". _{Duly signed,} ⛵ WaltClipper -(talk) 14:49, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

"And how is one supposed to contact an Admin? Their posts aren't labelled as coming from Admins." If you find it necessary to notify an admin, there are many sysops who regularly post on ITN. You've been around longer than I have, so I would imagine you recognize a few of their names by now, but if you do not, click on some user pages and there's a decent chance you'll find one rather quickly. Or find an entry that has been posted - the user who announced that it's been posted is probably an administrator.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 19:31, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

Not "probably". IS an admin. ITN is fully protected, so only admins can post, or make changes to ITN. Natg 19 (talk) 20:19, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

I should have italicized "probably" for effect, I'm not very good at being facetious  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 21:54, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

Seems to still be missing several citations. DarkSide830 (talk) 04:23, 7 December 2024 (UTC)