Talk:UAAP Season 82 volleyball tournaments

Higher seed on left, lower seed on right

Please refer to the discussion on: Talk:UAAP Season 82 basketball tournaments. —  McVahl  Talk  03:25, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

Initiative to use Module:Sports table/Volleyball

From this season forward, please use Module:Sports table/Volleyball for the team standing tables. Please check the module page for proper usage.

Conversion of Template:Vb cl3 header to module in the future is possible, and it will be a good start to apply it as early as now. (You may check Template:Fb cl header — deprecated and considered for deletion due to module conversion)

Module:Sports table/Volleyball is now widely used in international competition/league articles (e.g. Olympics, Asian Games, Superliga Femenina de Voleibol) anyway. —  McVahl  Talk  08:10, 20 January 2020 (UTC)

Team standings table comes first

Can we refer to articles like 2018 FIVB Volleyball Women's World Championship on how such things are ordered? Perhaps move the match results table either before or after Game results section.

Also, instead of using the 3-letter team codes, can we apply Template:UAAPteam-rt and Template:UAAPteam? It would be easier to lookup by referring to teams’ colors over plain text. Even the reference article I mentioned above never used the ISO country codes in presenting such information. —  McVahl  Talk  14:24, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

A laundry list that's predominantly used in Philippine domestic volleyball articles such as this one are supposedly not allowed as per WP:NOTSTATS. It's best to get rid of these as the game results table is more than sufficient for this purpose. Howard the Duck (talk) 01:35, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

@Voncabriga:: Please let us know your thoughts here, as you introduced such content since the UAAP Season 81 volleyball tournaments article. – McVahl (talk) 01:50, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

@Howard the Duck:: How about the "Elimination round results" thingy between two teams in semifinals/finals sections, is it relevant? – McVahl (talk) 01:50, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

No domestic league has a laundry list of game results in calendar order in its season article (exceptions: Australian leagues). Granted, the UAAP has 16 elimination round games per team, and is generally lesser in number than other domestic leagues, but elimination round/regular season game details (when and where it was held, per-set scoring, etc.) is simply unencyclopedic in season articles such as this.

Re: Elimination round results recap: I started added those years ago when there isn't a game results table before. That's redundant now. I'd rather do previous playoff meetings between the two teams and when was the last time the team made it in this stage, instead. Howard the Duck (talk) 01:57, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

Someone else actually introduced this so I followed along. Because it's used in Philippine Volleyball articles, I never raised any contention. I'm not familiar with the guidelines on WP:NOTSTATS so I'm not the best person to ask on this. However, my opinion is if we are to follow the order on things on FIVB tournaments, it's the Game Results table that's redundant now. Voncabriga (talk) 07:21, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

Editors should be well-versed in WP:NOT. FIVB tournaments are a different animal altogether; FIFA and FIBA tournaments list all games, but for season articles such as 2019–20 ACB season and the 2019–20 La Liga, only the results table is shown. (Granted, these leagues have twice the number games than the UAAP). You can argue for FIVB tournaments to show all games; a domestic league such as this doesn't and shouldn't list all elimination round games. Domestic volleyball leagues, 2019–20 V-League (South Korea), for example, actually use the game results tables. (Granted, domestic volleyball seasonal articles aren't that many.) It is the Philippine volleyball season articles are out of order. Reading through the PSL and PVL articles is cringe-worthy, with violations of Wikipedia policy in almost every section. Howard the Duck (talk) 01:27, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

Another issue here is the inclusion of team rosters. I am not sure, but I think this has something to do with the discussion on Talk:UST Growling Tigers#Team rosters. I've been an editor here since Season 71 so I observed how season articles change over a period of time. Anyway going back to the topic, articles like 2019–20 V-League (South Korea) would be a good reference to get rid of items here that violate Wiki policies. – McVahl (talk) 02:37, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

I'm actually okay with the addition of team rosters; if you'd imagine each sport in the UAAP as a tournament in something like the Southeast Asian Games, they can be their own article like UAAP Season 82 volleyball tournaments squads; they can also be in team season articles. Not in this seasonal article though. As for team rosters in the varsity team article, I'm okay with it, but U.S. varsity team articles don't do it. They can probably be in the per sport articles (US varsity team articles don't do this though), or most certainly at every team seasonal article (US team seasonal articles do this). The basketball tournament articles are actually miles ahead in being well kept than the volleyball ones; the former can be a model to the latter. Howard the Duck (talk) 04:32, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

@Howard the Duck: Frankly, I'm not on the same Editor level as you guys are. I'm more of a contributor to help keep the page as consistent as possible with the results and with how it was written from previous seasons. So if we need to make changes to abide by the policies, I'm all for it. After this, we can also revisit the individual sport pages for the UAAP season so they share a common outline. Voncabriga (talk) 04:12, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

@Howard the Duck: @McVahl: since we removed the match results table, can we implement the {{{HoverDetLink}}} in the Game Results table to show the set scores? Or would this also be in violation of the policies? Let me know your thoughts. Thanks! Voncabriga (talk) 12:56, 8 March 2020 (UTC)

IMHO, it's not a violation of policies but I'm personally not in favor of it; the set totals should suffice. The point totals per set matter just a little (probably a tiebreaker criterion?), just the number of sets won. The South Korean league that I shared above doesn't do this. Howard the Duck (talk) 13:58, 8 March 2020 (UTC)

I often see those hover texts in NCAA PH volleyball articles (e.g. NCAA Season 94 volleyball tournaments). But if I would be asked in reader’s point of view, I am much more interested about the final result over those “scores per set”. Besides, such hover text technique is a violation of MOS:NOSYMBOLS, unless you are hovering abbreviations. – McVahl (talk) 15:02, 8 March 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the info. Let's keep it as it is now then. Voncabriga (talk) 03:17, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

Double round robin

|match_AdMU_UP=3–0
...
...
|match_UP_AdMU=0–3

@Aeontamaraw: Why do you insist to replicate such details in the results table? Note that UAAP games are played in double round robin schedule, and these two parameters mean two different games. You can do it to “your” MPBL articles, but not here. – McVahl (talk) 16:08, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

Tiebreak Rules

Is the head-to-head record part of the tiebreaker rules? If I remember correctly, match points are used even if a team has a 0–2 Head-to-head record against a team it's tied with. Thanks! Voncabriga (talk) 04:55, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

Tiebreaker rules change over a period of time (e.g. there was a seeding playoff for #1 before). – McVahl (talk) 05:07, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

Yup, I understand but for this particular table and tournament, should we show what the tiebreaker rules are? Or are we showing the generic tiebreaker rules? Thanks! Voncabriga (talk) 08:36, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

Please show the tiebreaker rules applied for that season. Which season/s (with old tiebreaker rule) are you referring anyway? – McVahl (talk) 08:44, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

Just found an example: Men's tournament of the UAAP Season 77 volleyball tournaments. Ateneo and UST are tied at #1 with an 11–3 record. UST was 2–0 against Ateneo in the eliminations, but Ateneo had better total match points. If head-to-head record takes precedence, UST should have taken the #1 seed. Voncabriga (talk) 03:06, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

I see. You are correct. I believe UAAP is following FIVB rules, hence the class_rules value must be updated to:

1) number of wins; 2) if tied for #2 or #4, one-game playoff; 3) match points; 4) sets ratio; 5) points ratio; 6) head-to-head record – McVahl (talk) 03:33, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

Thanks! Will start updating the other tables as well. Voncabriga (talk) 05:55, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

Does the UAAP sort by points, or by wins, first? Official UAAP standings (not those by third parties) have shown they sort by points first, and wins aren't considered altogether. Howard the Duck (talk) 21:33, 23 March 2020 (UTC)