Talk:President of the Republic of China

Warlord gov't

the Yuan Shikai and Warlord gov't (1913 - 1928) isn't recognized by the current Taiwanese gov't. It was a different polical organization from the current ROC. So should its presidents be part of this list?
-- voidvector — Preceding undated comment added 03:34, 12 December 2002 (UTC)

well maybe we're not talking about only the current Taiwanese government, but rather the ROC regime?— Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.192.172.145 (talk) 20:28, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

The ROC-KMT doesnt recognize the warlord government but it was internationally recognized as the legitimate ROC government. On the other hand, no foreign nation recognized the ROC-KMT until they took Beijing in 1928.--Countakeshi 01:07, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Related discussion

There is some recent (June 2004) disussion at Talk:Chiang_Kai-shek#Presidential_navigation_bar about redoing the list of "presidents" that is relevant here. --Jiang 23:37, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

What fills the gap between 1928 and 1948

Somebody must be claiming the sovereignty of whole China before and during WWII. Also the Japan-backed governments in Manchuria and Northern China claimed part of China.

see List of leaders of the Republic of China. This article should really be rewritten to reflect that. --Jiang 20:15, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

From Oct 10, 1928 to the current constitution, the title Chairman of the National Government was commonly (perhaps exclusively) translated as "President" by foreign press. I am not sure if this was officially endorsed or simply not objected to by the ROC at the time. This is similar to President of the Executive Yuan being translated as "premier". Also compare with State Chairman of the PRC officially being translated as President of the PRC. In this light, should we include the 1928 to 1949 heads? --Countakeshi (talk) 01:45, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Update. I'm in the opinion that Chairman was officially translated as President. Letters by Herbert Hoover and Franklin Roosevelt are addressed to Lin Sen and Chiang Kai-shek as President of the National Government of the Republic of China. These formal correspondences must have been done after contacting embassy or foreign ministry officials. One PRC government website also uses "President Lin Sen". This might actually be the precedent for the PRC's current translation of State Chairman into President.--Countakeshi (talk) 06:41, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

We should discuss this, then. john k (talk) 07:08, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm of the opinion of including the chairmen who served under the 1928-1947 Organic Law (the Political Tutelage era). The books and articles from that era seem to unanimously use "president". Finding an officially translated document or quote by an ROC official from that era will settle the matter.--Countakeshi (talk) 10:20, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

The Potsdam Declaration uses President of the National Government of the Republic of China, so it appears to be the official translation. I'm going to update the article accordingly. --Countakeshi (talk) 01:00, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Taiwan and Mainland

218.171.150.123 05:48, 10 October 2006 (UTC)2006.10.10

• Taiwan now is facing a global law's problem.
• Taiwan is actually taking Mainland China as a self-controlled plitical entity. No matter KMT or PPP can refuse to say that Taiwan is controlled by itself, and Mainland is controlled by itself.
• No matter Taiwan will be independent or not, in fact, both Taiwan and Mainland will keep on helping each other.
• Although now is sad to say that Taiwan is not in the UN, it is just some small problems to reach the goal, law's problem for example.
• Under one China policy, independency can bring Taiwan a fundation to join the UN. Combine with Taiwan and Mainland under a political entity is good for the progress of demacracy in the Mainland. The political combination will be based on a good election system.
• Today in Hong Kong, they are still holding their English election system. Taiwan is a far away a problem after Mainland and Hong Kong relationships.

President of Taiwan

I have make this term bold because it is another name for president of ROC. However, someone keeps changing it back.--Jerrypp772000 23:51, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

No it is not a term for the President of the Republic of China. He is the President of the Republic of China, not Taiwan. There is no need to make it bold. -Nationalist 00:48, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes it is. It is known as President of Taiwan outside of ROC!--Jerrypp772000 00:30, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

[1], yay, TingMing agreed for me to move!--Jerrypp772000 01:04, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Please do not move this page without consensus and do not disrupt Wikipedia to make a point.--Jiang 05:04, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

The article should be moved to "President of Taiwan", the current title of the article can be confused with the President of (the People's Republic of) China.--Mechanical Keyboarder 08:00, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

Agreed with Mr. Keyboarder. – Illegitimate Barrister (talk • contribs), 10:17, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

They were no Presidents between 1927 and 1948?

--Damifb 20:34, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Removed statement about "President of Taiwan" not being prevalent

I removed the statement "[The usage] President of Taiwan ... is not prevalent in Taiwan itself", but I forgot to put the link to the table in the summary. Please see Talk:Premier of the Republic of China#Tables. — Sebastian 09:39, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Remove statement about premier

Removed the statement about that premier's powers were reduced out of fear that the DPP would control the legislature. I don't recall this as a major reason for the constitutional changes and it doesn't make sense because by centralizing power with the President, the change made it easier for the DPP to take popwer.

Roadrunner (talk) 21:22, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

The fall of the DPP

Uh oh. The KMT have taken over the Taiwanese government again. These grubby nationalists will stop at nothing to portray Taiwanese people, society, culture, politics etc etc as somehow connected to Chinese people, society, culture, politics etc etc. I am afraid that this development will only reinforce the perception that Taiwan is somehow a break-away or 'rebellious' state. As everyone knows, the KMT has no real interest in promoting Taiwanese identity as a legitimate national identity; in fact, it were able to suppress it it would have done so long ago. So the bottomline: this article needs to mention more about the changing dynamics of the Taiwanese presidency with respect to notions of Taiwanese identity (including how views on it have changed since 1949). Also, a separate article on 'President of Taiwan (since 1987)' should probably be created. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.105.145.175 (talk) 11:12, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

But what exactly would the "President of Taiwan" article be about?--Jerrch 18:08, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Merger

I think it would be better to merge this page with President of the Republic of China and create a section "Succession."--Jerrch 00:58, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree K.murphy (talk) 15:40, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Done.--Jerrch 18:05, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

"The government ... views itself as an independent sovereign country"

This statement is in error. The official position of the government of the ROC is still that Taiwan and the mainland are a single country, with the ROC as the rightful government of both territories. This is enshrined in the ROC constitution and has never been changed.

It is certainly true that most Taiwanese, including many members of the government (and the previous two presidents), view Taiwan as a de facto sovereign nation. But that is different from claiming the view as the ROC government's official position.

Semantically, I also think it's better to say that the ROC does not recognize the legitimacy (rather than the existence) of the PRC.

EDIT: In re-reading my comments it occurs to me I have oversimplified the issues involved and made a couple of dubious statements myself. Simply asserting that the ROC == Taiwan glosses over a whole plethora of issues, viewpoints and territorial questions.

The question comes down to territory. Though pretty much everyone in Taiwan agrees that the ROC is the legitimate government of a sovereign state, when it comes to drawing the national boundaries of that state, the opinions lie (pardon the pun) quite literally all over the map.

Though the ROC constitution makes general reference to the territories that were under ROC control at the time of its ratification, it never explicitly defines what those territories were. While (in addition to the mainland and Mongolia) they did include the islands of Kinmen and Matsu, significantly, they did not include the main island of Taiwan, which had been Japanese territory since 1895. (Chiang Kai Shek later repudiated the Treaty of Shimoneseki; at the time of ratification, however, Japanese sovereignty was not disputed.)

Since 1945 the ROC (and, ironically, the PRC) has used various combinations of the retrocession argument and repudiation of Shimoneseki to claim sovereignty over the island of Taiwan, though the ROC constitution has never been amended to include it (work was begun to do so, but the National Assembly, the agency responsible for such things, was abolished before work was completed).

Though nearly all Taiwanese (and, obviously the government itself) agree that the ROC is a sovereign state, there are at least three different understandings of what that encompasses (and herein lies the great gulf between the reunification and the independence forces in Taiwan).

Many reunificationists (mostly older Taiwanese, whose numbers are now dwindling) hold that ROC territory still includes the mainland, now (either since retrocession in 1945 or ab initio, depending on one's views of Shimoneseki) together with Taiwan. For these folks, the Republic of China is a sovereign, independent state whose territory includes the mainland. They would dispute that Taiwan is a sovereign state, as Taiwan is but a part of the larger state.

A broad swathe of Taiwanese, encompassing both reunificationists and pro-independence supporters, hold that since 1949 ROC territory has been (or should be) reduced to the territories now under its control. They are ready and willing to acknowledge PRC sovereignty over the mainland, but hold to ROC sovereignty over its current holdings. Since for this group ROC and Taiwan are co-extensive, they would hold that "the ROC is sovereign and independent" is equivalent to "Taiwan is sovereign and independent".

Of course the reunificationists in this group wish to see both sides reunified, though they differ on what the governement of the reunified territory should be. The independence supporters, OTOH, wish to see Taiwan continue as an idependent state; they argue over whether the ROC should be abolished in favor of a new government.

The official position of the government of Taiwan is, of course, that the ROC is currently a sovereign and independent state, but as far as I know there is no official government position on whether its territories include the mainland (and Mongolia) or are limited to its current holdings.

CNJECulver (talk) 17:28, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Discussion invite

Hello. I invite you to join a centralized discussion about naming issues related to China and Taiwan. Szqecs (talk) 14:24, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

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Proposed Change

This article, especially the lead emphasizes the pre-1949 history too much and gives insufficient weight to the current ROC on Taiwan, so I propose to make these changes:

1. Change the lead into:

The President of Taiwan, officially the President of the Republic of China, is the head of state of Taiwan. Since 1996, the President is directly elected by plurality voting to a four-year term, with at most one re-election. The incumbent, Tsai Ing-Wen, succeeded Ma Ying-jeou on 20 May 2016 as the first female president in the nation's history. Originally established in Nanking in 1912, the Republic of China and it's president relocated to Taiwan in 1949 after losing the Chinese civil war.

2. Change the position of the History section to appear before Timeline of Presidents

3. Add the date and name of the first directly elected president in the infobox in "Formation" and "First Holder" --Uaat (talk) 03:44, 21 July 2018 (UTC)

We'd have to also change the title to reflect that. That said I think that arrangement is too cumbersome. "The President of the Republic of China is the head of state of Taiwan." would be better. – Illegitimate Barrister (talk • contribs), 10:17, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

First Sentence

I am changing the first sentence per MOS:LEADALT: When the title is a name, significant alternative names for the topic should be mentioned in the article, usually in the first sentence or paragraph.

If @TaerkastUA: or @CaradhrasAiguo: thinks the official name should come before the alternative name, you could swap that and I am happy to discuss which should come first, but please don't revert to the version that removes the alternative name, which violates MOS:LEADALT. --Uaat (talk) 04:26, 1 December 2019 (UTC)

Don't make your changes again without WP:CONSENSUS, which is exactly what you did. You've taken only this part from MOS:LEADALT "significant alternative names for the topic should be mentioned in the article, usually in the first sentence or paragraph" while disregarding"The title can be followed in the first line by one or two alternative names in parenthese". - This is the part you've actually conveniently ignored, which is how the policy is actually intended to be applied. If you want to have the articles moved, by all means request them, but until then, the official names should take priority. --Tærkast (Discuss) 19:27, 2 December 2019 (UTC)

I’ve struck a compromise between the two of you and included President of Taiwan in parenthesis in the first sentence, I know Uaat would prefer the article be renamed entirely and TaerkastUA objects to any mention of Taiwan but I think this is a good compromise. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 17:01, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

华 总 and 统

@CaradhrasAiguo: "and most editors noted that there is room for case-by-case exceptions." [2] 华 总 and 统 are not yet shown to be part of the native language used between the people in this nation-state; displaying them prominently on this English language page leaves the impression that this is the case-- only directly relevant foreign language material needs to be included here Geographyinitiative (talk) 23:47, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

This was the exact argument used in the past. The only !vote mentioning "exceptions" was this, and it was particularly vague, i.e. not suggesting the entirety of the modern-day ROC be counted therein. CaradhrasAiguo (leave language) 00:00, 10 September 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 28 November 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 20:02, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

---

President of the Republic of China → President of Taiwan – and spin out content before 1949 to Head of state of the Republic of China (1912-49). Do similar for other government positions, such as the Vice President of the Republic of China, Premier of the Republic of China.

The proposal complies with the 5 naming WP:CRITERIAs of article titles.

Recognizability: Taiwan is the most recognizable name of the country. Republic of China is not recognizable and often confused with the People's Republic of China.

Naturalness: President of Taiwan is the most commonly used name for the current position in reliable sources.'President of Taiwan' 43000 Results.[3]. 'President of the Republic of China'[4] only 18100 Results, while many of those actually uses the form 'President of the Republic of China (Taiwan)' or is about Sun yet-sen.

Precision:The current title is imprecise. Between 1925 to 1948, the head of state was not called the President. It was 'Chairman of the Nationalist Government'.

Conciseness:President of the Taiwan is shorter.

Consistency:The proposal is consistent with the articles Taiwan and Republic of China (1912-49). Also consistent with president articles of other countries, which use the common name of the country instead of the full title. Dave3753 (talk) 23:52, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

• Strong oppose There is no such "President of Taiwan" title specified in the 1947 Constitution (or else documentation demonstrating that would have surfaced here on Wikipedia by now), and any split would make a disastrous mess out of Li Zongren, who was acting President under said Constitution and served from Jan 1949, when the ROC had still not fled the bulk of the mainland, to Feb 1950, when the ROC was confined to its present territory, with a notable exception of Hainan. CaradhrasAiguo (leave language) 00:26, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

• Strong oppose The complexity and history of the article titles are well defined, and while the states have been moved to "Taiwan" and "China" respectively, the consensus has been to retain the formal titles as they are. There are always exceptions to most rules, and PRC/ROC official position titles have been treated accordingly. One should also take note that it appears the user created an account soley to fill in this requested move, without prior knowledge or understanding of the depth of discussions surrounding this. --Tærkast (Discuss) 20:23, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose – there is no such thing as the "president of Taiwan" because Taiwan is not a fully-independent nation. It claims to be the legit government of China and therefore we could argue that the president claims to be the president of China, not the "president of Taiwan". cookie monster (2020) 755 21:25, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

RFC

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

RFC procedurally closed by User:Redrose64

---

Should we move this page to President of Taiwan, and spin out content before 1949 to a new article? Opening a RFC for the requested move above to attract more attention. Uaat (talk) 07:15, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

• Support Per Dave3753. President of Taiwan fits the five naming criteria better. Even though "President of Taiwan" is not an constitutional title and "Taiwan" is not the official name of the country. WP:UCRN says that Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it generally prefers the name that is most commonly used. Uaat (talk) 07:40, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
• Support in principle, but let's make sure there's really strong consensus. Participation in the RM was small, but it was not very long ago and had clear consensus against such a move. I support given WP:COMMONNAME and matching Taiwan. I don't think separating content from before 1949 is necessary, but I would not oppose it either. --BDD (talk) 14:53, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
• Please use WP:RM, per WP:RFCNOT. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 16:41, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

  @Redrose64:The problem is, the previous move request only had three participants, and one of them is a blocked sock. RFCs usually get more attention. Is there some procedure to attract wider attention for Requested moves?Uaat (talk) 07:33, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

  Yes. Send a neutrally-worded note to the talk pages of relevant WikiProjects, being careful to respect WP:CANVAS. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 22:50, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

• Support In the west at least, Taiwan is the WP:COMMONNAME that folks know the ROC by. Even the country article is named Taiwan. The ROC/PRC difference is I think fairly confusing, even to the academically minded, and risks confusing the reader. CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 16:53, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
• Too soon after a failed RM in December, and starting an Rfc is NOT the right way to go. User:Redrose64 was right to shut that down. I suggest you compile support here, and if you get it launch another RM in say 8 weeks. I would probably support a move. There are other possibilities, & it would be good to gauge support for them, for example President of the Republic of China (Taiwan). Johnbod (talk) 23:36, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 20 June 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus (non-admin closure) Red Slash 04:13, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

---

President of the Republic of China → President of Taiwan – Per the two discussions above Uaat (talk) 16:08, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

To be clearer, the move proposal also proposes to spin out content before 1949 to a new article, following the two discussions above.--Uaat (talk) 15:14, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

• Support per WP:COMMONNAME. While the common name of the independent country in East Asia is clearly "Taiwan", we can't necessarily use that fact to rename every article related to Taiwan. Each article subject has its own common name, and it would make sense for certain political things to retain "Republic of China" within their name in common usage. That being said, the common name for this subject is clearly "President of Taiwan". News articles mentioning "President of Taiwan" in 2020 were approximately five times more frequent than news articles mentioning "President of the Republic of China" in the same year (326 vs. 60). I'll note that using the unofficial "president of Taiwan" throughout the article may necessitate a change in the capitalization of the word "president" in some cases because "president of Taiwan" is not an official title. See Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biography#Titles of people  Mysterymanblue  07:35, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose – This position dates back to Sun Yat-sen, at a time when the Republic of China did not even include Taiwan. The proposed title fails both WP:PRECISE and WP:CONCISE, as the article's scope would not match up with the title. COMMONNAME clearly does not apply, because :this is not purely a contemporary subject, but also a historical one. One can say clearly that the COMMONNAME for this position in regards to Sun Yat-sen or anyone the succeeded him is clearly not 'President of Taiwan'. The present title should thus be retained, representing the real continuity that exists. I would also like to pre-emptively oppose any proposal to split off post-1949 content, as this would be something akin to WP:OR, and not representative of reality. RGloucester — ☎ 16:26, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose It is a different story in contrast with common name chage for Taiwan. As the President Office of Taiwan as well as any candidate who successively held the posts of the presidency still specify the "president of the Republic of China" as the only formal and legal title being used domestically and diplomatically,[5][6][7][8] which should be regarded as self-identification, regardless of any different name used by other parties, and the riddence of formal title delibrately neglect the descendant of this position which were also once held by Chiang Kai-Shek and his son as well as Ma Ying-jeou, those were bornt outside of Taiwan. Would they consider themselve as merely the "President of Taiwan"? Are we going to reidentify them as president of Taiwan followed by the modification? A few additional remark, the CCP government is keen to use the title of "Leader of Taiwan region" instead of "President of the ROC" so as to belittle the president as just a local governmental figure... do you favour to change it in compliance with the nomenclature stipulated by Chinese government? 123.195.130.73 (talk) 04:42, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

Come on. There is a big difference between "Leader of Taiwan region" and "President of Taiwan". One suggests that Taiwan is an independent country with its own sovereign head of state; the other doesn't. Ultimately, the question of whether to accept a Chinese or Taiwanese identity (which is essentially the difference between "President of Taiwan" and "President of the Republic of China") is a bit removed from the question of whether to kowtow to the CCP.  Mysterymanblue  09:01, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

The question of 'Chinese' and 'Taiwanese' identity might be a valid consideration when discussing a person, but it is certainly not valid when discussing a legal title with deep historical roots. Putting aside the current political situation, it simply does not make sense from a historiographical perspective to reify this office as a 'President of Taiwan', when no such title is specified anywhere, and where many of the holders of the relevant title never even held control over the territory of Taiwan! RGloucester — ☎ 13:24, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

The article naming WP:CRITERIA does not include using the formal and legal title, or the preference of position holders. In fact, WP:UCRN states that "Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it generally prefers the name that is most commonly used." The Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(people)#Self-published_name_changes are only for biographies, and doesn't apply here. Analogously, President of Greece is not titled President of the Hellenic Republic. Also, I would not say the government's usage of the formal title is self-identification. If the PRC does not threaten war, the formal name of the country would have already changed. --Uaat (talk) 15:58, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

I agree with you that we do not prefer official titles here. However, you are failing to take into account the full scope of article in your assessment of this position's common name, as I said above. The common name of this title as in reference to Sun Yat-sen, or to Chiang Kai-shek in 1948, is not 'President of Taiwan'. Any supposition about whether the formal name of the country would be changed is WP:CRYSTAL and WP:OR, and does not belong here. RGloucester — ☎ 16:13, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

Almost everything in the article except the 'History' and 'Timeline of presidents' sections are about the modern time position under the current constitution. If the article is moved, for an article about the modern position, it is not a problem for the history section to include history before 1949, and only small changes would have to be made to the article to fix the scope problem. The modern position and the historical positions, including the Sun yet-Sen, great president, beiyang government, Nationalist government, all have different Chinese official titles, are based on different constitution/law , are elected by different people/organization, have different responsibilities and power, and controlling a different area. Even though they are all "presidents" of the ROC, they are practically different positions. I don't think lumping them all toghether in the same article is a good idea. Most readers of this article would be mainly interested in the modern position, instead of the full timeline of historical positions.--Uaat (talk) 17:47, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose per RGloucester. 162 etc. (talk) 14:52, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
• Support I am reiterating the reasons provided by Dave3753 above.

The proposal complies better with the the 5 naming WP:CRITERIAs of article titles, and the current article fails all of them.

Recognizability: Taiwan is the most recognizable name of the country. Republic of China is not recognizable and often confused with the People's Republic of China.

Naturalness: President of Taiwan is the most commonly used name for the current position in reliable sources.

Precision: The current title is imprecise. Between 1925 to 1948, the head of state was not called the President. It was 'Chairman of the Nationalist Government'.

Conciseness: President of the Taiwan is shorter.

Consistency:The proposal is consistent with the articles Taiwan and Republic of China (1912-49). Also consistent with president articles of other countries, which use the common name of the country instead of the full title.--Uaat (talk) 15:58, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

The head of state between 1925–1948 was indeed titled 'President'. While this is not a literal translation of the Chinese, it was officially used in English, and is used by all relevant English-language RS, to refer the relevant position. The proposed title is not actually more 'concise', because it does not indicate the scope of the article as it is now. RGloucester — ☎ 16:10, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

• Comment: As Uaat wants to rename this page, can we at least include the Taiwanese head of state when the island was ruled by Japan like Governor-General of Taiwan? ROC President has been in Kinmen and Matsu via Fujian since 1912 and Taiwan/Penghu from 1945. -174.89.100.194 (talk) 03:44, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose When the main state articles were moved, it was agreed that the corresponding government officials articles relating to each of the PRC/ROC would remain as they were. The articles have long since been stable where they are. Can I ask why Uaat is supporting? Is the fact that it was raised by them not itself support? In addition, it is interesting as well, to note these move requests have by and large only been raised on ROC/Taiwan office articles, people seem to not mind that the PRC articles retain the long form. --Tærkast (Discuss) 14:35, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose Per WP:OFFICIAL, common names are not always preferred. --HypVol (talk) 12:00, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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President of China

Before the 1970s and even after now, the ROC President was also called the "President of China" when the ROC was the internationally recognized government of China. Despite the PRC is now recognized as the official "China", the name is also used as well as evidenced in the May 9, 1995 Congressional Record by the United States Congress which refers to Lee Teng-hui as the "President of China on Taiwan". Even Eswatini also refers to the ROC President as the "President of China" as well ([9]).Silence of Lambs (talk) 22:47, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

This is not true. Taiwan is Taiwan, but not China. Nor does Taiwan have any relation with China. There is no legal reason to refer to the president of a country as the president of another country. 2604:2D80:D50F:6600:9097:8925:8742:26EC (talk) 07:02, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 25 June 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Supporters of the move cite common name but opposers counter that argument with google search statistics, the exception listed at the naming convention for pre-1949 topics and the article titling policy regarding inaccurate common names (by arguing that the scope of the article includes content about pre-1949 institutions). Arguments for splitting the article did not gain consensus. DrKay (talk) 09:16, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

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• President of the Republic of China → President of Taiwan
• Vice President of the Republic of China → Vice President of Taiwan
• Premier of the Republic of China → Premier of Taiwan
• Vice Premier of the Republic of China → Vice Premier of Taiwan

– WP:COMMONNAME and WP:PRIMARYTOPIC as with the recent move of the President of the People's Republic of China to the President of China. However, now with the ROC largely lost legitimacy to claim as the legitimate government of the Chinese state, let's move some of the pre-1949 historical context of these articles to the (office post) of China and let these articles focus on the history of the heads of state and government on Taiwan during Qing, Japanese colonial rule and the ROC since 1945. Silence of Lambs (talk) 22:50, 25 June 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. – robertsky (talk) 10:29, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Taiwan, WikiProject China, and WikiProject Politics have been notified of this discussion. '''[[User:CanonNi]]''' (talk • contribs) 13:57, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

I see many flaws to this proposal. When does "President of Taiwan" start? in 1949? That's original research. Legitimacy of the ROC as the Chinese state government is irrelevant to the discussion, changes should be based on references.--TaronjaSatsuma (talk) 15:53, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

The rationale of the move is because no state recognized the ROC as "China" anymore, such as Lai Ching-te being called the "President of Taiwan" in various publications from the Australian Broadcasting Corporation and the Los Angeles Times. A Google Trends clarifies that "Taiwan" is searched more than the "Republic of China", which is a historical Chinese state on the Mainland. @The Account 2 can explain this and help me clarify the reason. Silence of Lambs (talk) 19:32, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Strong Support. I agree with @Silence of Lambs's view on this. "President of Taiwan" is what most of the people/government officials in the world (including United States; for example, United States Secretary of State Antony Blinken's congratulatory message to William Lai who is then newly elected Taiwanese president, Secretary Blinken mentioned Taiwan instead of ROC) acknowledge about this post, even in Taiwan.

The ROC used to represent China (today PRC) historically, but not anymore after the ROC government moved to Taiwan in 1949. Instead, ROC represents Taiwan and PRC represents China. (Both ROC and PRC “claimed” they have each others’ territories, but in fact, they do not belong to each other. And that’s why we would have China and Taiwan. Just like the ROK South Korea and the DPRK North Korea.)

Republic of China is still the country’s name, but it is most commonly to be known as Taiwan. Just like People’s Republic of China is commonly known as China/United States of America is commonly known as America or United States/Republic of the Korea is commonly known as South Korea/Etc…

As a conclusion, changing the title “President of the Republic of China” to “President of Taiwan” would be the best option while “President of the People’s Republic of China” is already changed to “President of China”.

I hope this explanation makes sense to all of you but if it’s confusing you, please let me know! :) Ogiwarahoshi (talk) 01:42, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

It seems like the two people arguing in favor of this renaming are focusing on the present time and the current situation, but the article covers a line of presidency that spans back to 1912. Wikipedia is not just about current status. It is an encyclopedia, not a newspaper – it covers the entire span of history. While I supported the President of China move, I'm less enthusiastic about this one and the proposed renaming of History of the People's Republic of China (1949–1976). During the time that this presidential position has existed, the geographic area that it has covered has changed. The one aspect that has been continuous is that it has been the presidency of the ROC. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 18:34, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

Yeah I agree. This seems to be a situation similar to the Flag of China and the Flag of the Republic of China articles. The Account 2 (talk) 09:23, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Weak oppose for the reason I described above (along with similar comments from TaronjaSatsuma and The Account 2). —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 19:17, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. These titles predate Taiwan. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:51, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

  I think you mean to say these titles predate Taiwan as the common name for the ROC, because Taiwan as an entity clearly predates the ROC. If that was what you mean, then I suggest either splitting the article into two to accommodate the overwhelming common usage today, or adding context within the article. Butterdiplomat (talk) 20:51, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

  Good grief, what an ability to split hairs! But no, actually, given the geographical island was generally known as Formosa in the English-speaking world before the ROC took control of it (and frequently afterwards as well). I should point out that normally I support replacing the Republic of China with Taiwan in article titles, except in these instances where they predate the move of the ROC to the island. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:36, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

  I mean, this probably is one discussion where semantics do matter, so I just wanted to make sure I understood your position. Your Formosa point kind of supports the proposal because the relevant articles are now Taiwan and Geography of Taiwan, rather than Formosa. I.e., the current common name is used even when an existing name predates it.

  With respect, I think we just have differing opinions on the scope of the exception. I agree with you in instances where something predates the retreat, but not necessarily if it continues on and garners a common name with the passage of time. The ROC (including its president and premier) has now been essentially conflated with Taiwan, with reliable sources referencing it as Taiwan, for longer than the period when it controlled mainland China, so at a certain point (perhaps you are arguing not yet), it makes sense to follow the rule rather than the exception. Butterdiplomat (talk) 13:51, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

  The reason why it is necessary to distinguish between 'President of Taiwan' and 'President of the Republic of China' is because the article describes the government position of the Republic of China; which includes all iterations of it since 1911/12, decades before the Republic of China became synonymous with Taiwan. Referring, therefore, to the article as the 'President of Taiwan', when the position it refers to has existed long before the synonymity of Taiwan with the Republic of China, is an example of recentism which is simply not acceptable. TheodoresTomfooleries (talk) 02:58, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

  I think the “long before” is what I and others are challenging. The President of Republic of China title officially began in 1948 (after the 1947 constitution), and though there may not be a clear-cut date of the common name, overwhelming usage for decades isn’t just recentism. Butterdiplomat (talk) 05:33, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

• Strong Support. name of country is Taiwan WP:COMMONNAME. 173.72.3.91 (talk) 15:32, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
  • It is now. But the early holders of these titles operated on the mainland. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:39, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
• Support per WP:COMMONNAME. And move the early history to the history section of President of China. Fizikanauk (talk) 17:58, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose This falls under the exceptional cases in WP:NC-CN. Vacosea (talk) 12:05, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

  I'm not convinced COMMONNAME supports a move. "President of the Republic of China" [10] and "Premier of the Republic of China" [11] have more Google Books results compared to "President of Taiwan" [12] and "Premier of Taiwan" [13]. Vacosea (talk) 07:00, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

  Common usage still clearly favors “Taiwan” over the “Republic of China” though. Google Trends for example shows overwhelming preference for President of Taiwan vs. of the Republic of China. Perhaps to be clearer, we can style it as president of Taiwan in the lede (lowercase p), similar to president of Greece, president of Germany (where there are differing official titles), and in fact most president articles. Butterdiplomat (talk) 14:10, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

  Trends by default show search frequency, not the number of results in RS. There are reasons to support both descriptions, not necessarily one or the other. Vacosea (talk) 21:24, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

• Support per WP:COMMONNAME. The fact that there was no clear date on which President of Taiwan became the common name can be contextualized in the history section of the article (or reorganized, similar to Taiwan vs. Republic of China (1912−1949)), and having no clear date of the start doesn’t supersede the fact that it is currently and overwhelmingly the common usage in the English language. Lastly, this is consistent with President of China as a related article. The Premier of Taiwan move should be even more clear-cut since the official name of that office is the President of the Executive Yuan, so we should be using the actual common name. Butterdiplomat (talk) 20:28, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
• Support per WP:COMMONNAME. - Amigao (talk) 02:31, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Strongly oppose. This article, as well as the articles for the Vice President, Premier, and Vice Premier refers to positions that existed both before the establishment of ROC control over the island of Taiwan and continue to exist today directly in a country known as the Republic of China. The current system of a redirect for the name is acceptable on its own. TheodoresTomfooleries (talk) 02:53, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose Per long standing convention, historicity and the complexities of the situation, I don't believe it would be prudent to move. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TaerkastUA (talk • contribs) 20:20, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
• Strong support. That the “Taiwan” formulations are the common names of these titles is not in dispute. No amount of hand-waving and WP:IDONTLIKEIT can trump policy and the usefulness of the encyclopedia to our readers. Concerns about pre-1949 history are irrelevant. That content can still be included in these articles – we regularly combine the history of subjects whose names have since changed in a single article, like Germany, UBS, or Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, all of which include the history of predecessors with different names. Per Butterdiplomat, the case for the Premier and Vice Premier articles is even more clear-cut, since those two posts are not officially titled “— of the Republic of China” at all. Toadspike [Talk] 14:28, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

  Similar concerns had been raised and it was concluded that the move of the Taiwan article "explicitly does not include any other articles". Vacosea (talk) 20:46, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

  The move of the Taiwan article (dated 2012) did not automatically include these articles here, but it also did not explicitly oppose the move. It merely called for a separate WP:RM, which is what this discussion here is. The main argument here is twofold: the “Taiwan” formulations are the common names…

  (1) for the title (“president of Taiwan” being more commonly used than “president of the Republic of China”) and

  (2) for the country (convention favoring president of “Taiwan” vs. president of the “Republic of China”). Butterdiplomat (talk) 01:23, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Support, though possibly with moving the pre-1947 constitution officials to a separate page, like the Weimar Reichspresident. Glide08 (talk) 06:35, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Opppose, this title would be inaccurate/misleading as the article also covers presidents before the retreat to Taiwan. I agree with the points made by both TaerkastUA and TheodoresTomfooleries. Civciv5 (talk) 20:34, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

I do not think it is misleading or inaccurate, because most modern references to this position are in fact Taiwan president (TIME, Reuters), Taiwan's president (Al Jazeera, BBC), Taiwanese president (Washington Post), or president of Taiwan (BBC, Britannica, Economist). The article is about the head of state of what is now commonly known as Taiwan and officially the ROC. In the same way Taiwan is officially the ROC, we can apply WP:COMMONNAME and contextualize the history within the article. This move would make the article consistent with most other president or premier articles. E.g., President of South Korea (vs. of the Republic of Korea), President of Greece (vs. of the Hellenic Republic), President of China (vs. of the People's Republic of China), President of Laos (vs. President of Lao People's Democratic Republic). Butterdiplomat (talk) 13:01, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

Just a point, you can't really make the claim based on countries such as Laos, or Greece etc as there haven't been two states with the same name with one formerly recognised under the shorthand, they are not comparable situations. The Koreas, potentially yes, but otherwise, this situation is different.--Tærkast (Discuss) 14:16, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

Except the “two states with the same name” point more applies to President of China, not this page. That would more be an argument to move that page to President of the People's Republic of China, not to keep this page at President of the Republic of China. And actually, that President of China example is probably the most comparable to this one, and supports the move. Of course, hard to find an exactly comparable situation, but I was merely arguing that all the other examples demonstrate the “president of [COMMON NAME OF COUNTRY]” formulation. Butterdiplomat (talk) 14:24, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

I don't think people are generally disputing that the current President is commonly referred to as the "President of Taiwan," but that, given the scope of the page (which also covers Presidents of the Republic of China prior to the 1949 retreat to Taiwan), "President of the Republic of China" is the best title for all of these people together (even if the R.O.C. is Taiwan now, the name didn't really come to be used until the 1960s or 1970s at the earliest, well after the position of President was established). DecafPotato (talk) 09:50, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

'Question - Given that this RM was started by a now blocked user, should this still continue? I wouldn't like to legitimise a move by someone not contributing constrictively to the Wiki. If need be this discussion can be reopened in due course.--Tærkast (Discuss) 17:31, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

I think there is enough support for the move to continue the discussion at least. Butterdiplomat (talk) 18:08, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Even if they had been blocked for sockpuppetry, a procedural close on that basis should only be done when there is no support from non-sock users. See WP:RMEC. SilverLocust 💬 02:45, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.