Talk:List of Welsh people

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Saint Patrick: Welsh or Scottish? It's a bit inappropriate to use either term really. Saint Patrick lived before the Scots and English invaded Britain. So the use of the words Scotland and England in the St Patrick article is inappropriate. At that time it was just Britain. So St Patrick is best described as British in my opinion. -- Derek Ross

What about Catherine Zeta-Jones? -- Paul Klenk

Not to mention Charlotte Church.Godofredo29 (talk) 00:30, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

What about Frank Lloyd Wright ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.131.130.229 (talk) 01:06, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

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Reverted the last edit by 63.92.156.234 -- Bob Hope was not Welsh, he was born in London. The other changes he made were to remove disambiguations from common names' piped links. -- Arwel 11:17, 28 Oct 2003 (UTC)

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Surely this should be entitled "List of famous Welsh people". If it's just a list of Welsh people, I demand to be on it!!!

Jesse T Williams

Who exactly is this person and what is the nature of his Welsh connections? Soccer or American football? Flapdragon 17:29, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Jesse T Williams played for Middlesbrough in the 30's or 40's.

According to an entry on a guestbook[1] (about all I could find on Google) it was 1924-1927. Perhaps not Wales's most famous son. Flapdragon 16:14, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

As notable as many on the list.

Colin Jackson

Colin Jackson (born 1967), star hurdler. I cannot remember Jackson hurdling any stars, just ordinary hurdles. Quite a feat if we are talking celestial bodies here!!! Or maybe he was jumping over other famous people? Or perhaps star shaped hurdles? Do we have a reference? Alun 16:45, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Bertrand Russell

Bertrand Russell now has two entries on this page, one under scientists and one under philosphers. Any opinion as to whether one of the entries should be removed? Nigel45 11:23, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

David Lloyd George

Even if he was born in England, he should be in this list. He was a Welshman!

Sir Emyr Jones-Parry

British Diplomat, currently UK Ambassador to the UN? This might require a new category.

"Other notables". -- Arwel (talk) 14:28, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Dafydd Roberts rugby player

Does anyone have any details for this person? Would seem to be one for deletion from this page.

Nigel45 22:01, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Page

I was just curious as to why Jimmy Page is on the list, since his profile says he was born and raised in England.

• Seems like one to remove. Nigel45 09:01, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Page

Does anybody know the person(s) responsible for putting Jimmy Page's name on the list? If so, please let me know soon so I can contact them.

Red links

Jack O'Lantern has taken to deleting red-linked people from this list on the grounds that "without articles, there's no way for the Wiki community to judge whether or not these people are notable. Besides, there were only something like 5-10 names". I notice from his user page that Jack is a 19 or 20 year old American, therefore may not have heard of these people, but that's no grounds for deleting links which might inspire people to write new articles - indeed, when I first came to Wikipedia 3½ years ago red links were positively encouraged to generate new entries, and I'm unaware of any policy changes since then. The people in question are:

• Rachel Preece - minor actor, but she has an IMDB entry
• Roger Moss - sculptor (Artcymru), (Nat. Ctr. for Product Design & Development Research)
• Ryan James - harpist / composer
• Jamie Stanfield - musician
• David Rees-Thomas - composer
• Seth Joshua - Revivalist preacher - published biography
• Lord Brian Flowers - physicist. Even I'd heard of him. Google on Lord Flowers produces 9500 entries, many being Hansard records of his contributions in Parliament.
• Ceri Griffiths - judo Brighton Uni SU - full colours winner 1998
• Thomas Stephens - historian / critic. We did have an article on him, which was vandalised on 10 July, then carelessly deleted on 11 July as "total nonsense". Restored.
• Arthur Lloyd James - phonetician quoted in a paper on British non-dialectic accents.
• Sir Emyr Parry-Jones - current UK permanent representative at the UN. Not notable???!

OK, so some of these people may not be very famous, but the majority of them are. I say restore the red links. -- Arwel (talk) 19:12, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, red links don't really help the reader, do they? All they see is a name and no way (within Wikipedia) to get any more info on the person. Also, it's hard to figure out who is notable because the person has no Wiki entry and there is no way for the Wiki community to decide if they are notable or not. A constant argument is that red links should be there because they encourage people to write articles about them. The flip-side of it - not having red links encourages someone to write the article, so the person can be included in the list!:) But since the red linked don't have a Wikipedia entry, how do we know that they more notable then other Welsh who are not included? Mad Jack 19:16, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

As for the individual people, Rachel Preece is a really minor actress whose article may well be deleted if created, not sure. A bunch of Google matches for various different Roger Mosses. A bunch of various Seth Joshuas on Google. Same for Brian Flowers. As for "Emyr Parry-Jones", he only has 4 pages worth of Google matches! See, the majority of these are really "iffy" and it's hard to figure out how notable they are. Mad Jack 19:22, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Griff Rhys Jones

Griff Rhys Jones is surely as famous a comedian / actor as any Welshman, born Cardiff. 88.107.66.93 23:45, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Welsh Nobles

Would it be feasable to create a list of Welsh Nobles? What I mean is a current list of Welsh titles and their current holders?Drachenfyre 06:30, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Saint David

Maybe I was taught wrongly, but as a Welsh lady (now an exile!) I was always taught that Dewi Sant was in fact, Irish?Fishystick 01:25, 11 March 2007= (UTC)

North and South

Does anybody know which of these people are from either Wrexham or north east wales. It is for another article i am trying to get above start class but it is a long list so i thought this way might be easier. You can leave a message for me by clicking my name. Thanks. The ones I know of already are tim vincent (blue peter) and Rhys Ifans (twin town) wicked film that. Anyway any one with any more of them shrooms give us a click ty Delighted eyes 00:52, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Photographer ?

I want to create a new article for a Welsh photographer. Where should I list this ? Is it possible to create a new 'role' type for photographer in the list ? --Darren Wyn Rees 17:18, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Harold Lowe

Harold Lowe was a Welsh Officer on the Titanic and the only person to, after escaping in a lifeboat, row back and pick up survivors (Four men, one later died). Is he a candidate for addition? 84.45.134.188 (talk) 22:40, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Welsh Politicians

The changes made to this page whereby alphabetical lists of politicans and other groups have been hived off into categories means that many individuals who were born in Wales but were successful elsewhere in the world have now been lost from view. It is appropriate for politicians in Wales to be identified by means of category but we've lost key historical figures such as Sir Samuel Griffiths and Francis Lewis who attained their pre-eminence overseas. Does anyone else have any views on the subject? Nigel45 (talk) 14:04, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Most people are in the correct category eg Welsh politicians in this case. If anyone is not in the list its simply a case of adding the appropriate category Welsh politician (ie a person born in Wales) to that individual wiki article. The alternative would be to rekey the names of every Welsh person of note onto the the List of Welsh People page which is not just subjective but impossible to complete and maintain.Pwimageglow (talk) 00:47, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

There is a dual meaning of Welsh politicians, those politicians that operate in Wales which includes those not born in Wales, e.g. Janet Ryder and those politicians who are Welsh. This latter definition includes those who operate outside the Welsh and UK sphere.

The list was orginally a list of famous people born in Wales, split into categories. The present referral system misses a host of people who would not naturally be caterogized as 'Welsh' politicians, sportsmen etc as their achievements are notable outside Wales. Nigel45 (talk) 13:10, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

The category system is simple and correct ie it is irrelevant WHERE a person has become notable eg Catherine Zeta Jones correctly isn't in the category English or American actresses. There is no dual meaning to the category Welsh Politicians as its a subset of the category 'List of Welsh People by Occupation'. Michael Howard is rightly in the category Welsh Politicians etc because he was born in Wales - its irrelevant that his career has been largely outside Wales.

Just because someone happens to work in Wales at some point in their life doesnt make them a Welsh Author, Welsh politician etc. However, most people would consider Janet Ryder and David Lloyd George to be Welsh Politicians even though they werent born in Wales, so there's no problem adding the category Welsh Politician to those individuals. Similarly footballers who qualify for Wales through parents or grandparents rather than birth can rightly be in the category Welsh Footballers.

The category system is not exclusive eg Vinnie Jones is rightly in the English Film Actor and Welsh Film Actor categories. Just adds to completeness of Wiki.Pwimageglow (talk) 18:05, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

In addition, there is a section on the List of Welsh people page to add 'People born outside Wales regarded as Welsh'.

WP:V

We could do with some sources on this article. --John (talk) 14:27, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Shouldn't the article name be changed to reflect the content?

The article begins "This list of Welsh people is a list of notable Welsh people". Shouldn't it then be renamed List of notable Welsh people? Jack forbes (talk) 08:59, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

It wouldn't stop people adding themselves, sadly. To add oneself to a list like this, one would already have an inflated sense of self importance and consider oneself notable. I had a look at some of the pages on the List of people by nationality and they don't make the distinction 'notable'. So, by convention, it should remain unchanged. You could argue that one is notable simply by being Welsh (or Scottish) :) but the unwritten rule seems to be that if there is an article on someone, they are notable enough to be on this article, which seems fair enough to me. Daicaregos (talk) 10:04, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Dai, you've found me out.I asked to be included in the roll of honor at the List of Scots article. I see your point concerning convention so even though my inflated sense of self importance tells me I'm right I'll let it go. :) Jack forbes (talk) 10:18, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Citations

A WP:BOLD edit (removing the unsourced tag - "This article does not cite any references or sources.") made yesterday has been reverted by an anon IP. So in the spirit of WP:BRD - this is the D bit. Lists of people do not tend to have citations, which would more that double the size of the article and make it far too cumbersome, leaving sourcing for the linked articles. For example, of these lists from around the world List of Canadians, List of Chinese people, List of Filipinos, List of French people, List of Latvians, List of Pakistanis, List of Somalis, only the List of Pakistanis has any references and these relate to redlinks only. We seem to have four choices: #1 Provide sources for each entry; #2 Leave the tag as it is and expect all the entries to be deleted; #3 Remove the tag by consensus #4 Redefine the list's criteria to, say, 'This is a list of Welsh people notable enough to have a Wikipedia article.' Thoughts please, Daicaregos (talk) 09:24, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

No.3 would seem to be the obvious choice. References should only have to be provided in a list where there is reasonable doubt, or where a particular entry is likely to be challenged. It's far too easy for drive-by taggers to ask for refs and then to move on. Challenge individual entries by all means, but I would be in favour of removing the blanket tag. ♦ Jongleur¹⁰⁰ ♦ ^talk 15:40, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

People born outside Wales regarded as Welsh

Writers under this sub-heading meeds quite a sort through. Many are certainly Welsh. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:03, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Rugby players

It may be better to replace the players listed under 'Rugby players' with:

Main article: List of Wales national rugby union players

That article has over 1000 players listed. Non-capped and women rugby players could still be listed here. Any objections? Daicaregos (talk) 11:54, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Main article:

Does anyone have a view as to whether any other sections could/should be moved to their own article? Listings of 'Actors', 'Musicians' and 'Footballers' each seem numerous enough to have their own separate page. Daicaregos (talk) 11:53, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

This list is very poor indeed and would be better deleted, there is no detail that is additional to the category welsh people. I suggest deletion or at least individual citations and a comment for each as to the degree of welshiness they have and a comment explaining that - eg - john Williams lives in France but his mother was born in Cardiff and his father was a minor from Cllydd (27) Off2riorob (talk) 18:02, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Yes. It may well be notable if his father were a "minor" [sic]. But ... it's a list. What do you expect? If you wish to propose its deletion go right ahead. But first, I look forward to reading your definitions of degrees of Welshness. Daicaregos (talk) 20:56, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

I missed Cllydd [sic]. Perhaps you'd care to create an article on the place, as it's coming up as a 'red-link'. Daicaregos (talk) 21:00, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

recent reverts

• - dubious nation status and there is no such thing as a welsh passport

I see my addition to help explain about what welsh people really means has been removed - I think it clearly needs to be explained that as a nation they have no specific rights - they have British rights and most of the people in this list are also British and have British passports - its a reality that readers would benefit from understanding what they are reading. Off2riorob (talk) 23:06, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

They have many rights, thanks. The right to vote for a Welsh Assembly Member, the right to free medical prescriptions, the right to education in the medium of Welsh, etc, etc. They also have all the British rights as well, of course. You seem to be confusing Nationhood with Passport identity. There's no such thing as an English passport. Does that mean there is no English nation? Holding any kind of passport does not determine whether or not one is (or was) Welsh, or even English. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:33, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

Yes there is no such thing as an English nation, at least not one that wouldn't need as much descriptive explanation as possible. Why do you support obscuring the details here, its up to you guys, but its good to explain exactly what the list is all about. Off2riorob (talk) 23:43, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

Um, what's this all about? Does it mention passports? Should it? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:51, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

That would be a list without a 'reliable sources required' tag. Daicaregos (talk) 23:53, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

I don't want to compare, I found something I saw as misleading or detail that was missing and simply attempted to improve the explanation with a minor addition. I realize there is a lot of nationalistic contributors here so I will say good bye and leave you to it. Off2riorob (talk) 23:57, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

Thank you. Just one question: how can nationalism exist without a nation existing too? Daicaregos (talk) 23:59, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

That is the question you need to ask yourself. Off2riorob (talk) 00:02, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Um, so is it also a question to ask of National Assembly for Wales, National Library of Wales, [Wales national rugby union team]], and many more? Martinevans123 (talk) 18:17, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Didn't Welsh Nationalism got privatised by a Tory government back in the 80s? But so glad there's still a Welsh Passport Office in Newport, (.. or is there?) Martinevans123 (talk) 00:06, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Please, your POV is irrelevant to me and is likely also detrimental to the improvement of this article , please consider a WP:NPOV and WP:OWN and such like. Off2riorob (talk) 00:15, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure what the above exchange is about but this is a list of "Welsh People" as such it is related to the article of the same name and is not confined to British Citizens who identify as being Welsh --Snowded ^TALK 08:33, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Could someone plesae explain why the start of this article and the start of this one are so different to the start of this one? Why is that template not used here? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:02, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

I expanded the lead here trying to adhere to WP:LSC (“Lists should begin with a lead section that summarizes any necessary background information, provides encyclopedic context, links to other relevant articles, and makes direct statements about the criteria by which members of the list were selected.”), taking the first two paragraphs from Welsh people. But it was changed. The selection criteria need tightening up too. Daicaregos (talk) 09:43, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Yes, that seems quite sensible. But what is the rationale for giving List of English people a template which shows it as Part of a series on Lists of British people but not giving such a template to this article or to List of Scots? Martinevans123 (talk) 18:11, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

That template doesn't seem to improve the List of English people article. Nor would it improve either List of Scots or List of Welsh people. This article is in the Category:Lists of British people, which should be sufficient for article navigation. Readers would arrive at this article to see a list of Welsh people, I can't see the point of attracting them away from this article as soon as they arrive. Any ideas how the selection criteria can be tightened up? Daicaregos 13:58, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Intro

The current Lead needs improvement. This is a suggestion, based on MOS Lead and selection criteria:

"This is a list of Welsh people (Welsh: Cymry), an ethnic group and nation associated with Wales.

Historian John Davies argues that the origin of the Welsh nation can be traced to the late 4th and early 5th centuries, following the Roman departure from Britain, although Brythonic, Celtic languages seem to have been spoken in Wales far longer.

This list is for people of Welsh heritage and descent, and for people otherwise considered to be Welsh, either through birth or adoption. Only those meeting notability criteria are included on this list."

Any comments/suggestions for improvement, please. Daicaregos (talk) 10:37, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Do you mean this: "This is a list of Welsh people (Welsh: pobl Cymraeg)", or this "This is a list of Welsh (Welsh: Cymraeg) people", or something else? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:24, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

I mean "This is a list of Welsh people (Welsh: Cymry) ...". But it could be ""This is a list of Welsh people (Welsh: rhestr Cymru) ...". "Cymry" translates into English as "Welsh people" and "rhestr Cymry" translates as "list of Welsh people" (see Wicipedia). Whichever is preferred. Daicaregos (talk) 22:37, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

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David Griffiths 'first bible'

You mean first in a sub-Saharan language'. Geez and Amhairic and Coptic all precede this one.--142.163.194.38 (talk) 21:50, 21 November 2020 (UTC)