Talk:Eden Golan

rfc (Eden Golan Russian Israeli or Israeli)

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

I’m closing this discussion as demonstrating consensus for using “Israeli” in the first sentence. That is the view taken by most participants in the discussion, and that view is accompanied by good policy-based arguments. I would also be deeply troubled by the idea that Wikipedia would describe her as “Russian-Israeli” when she herself is on record as distancing herself from the idea of being Russian. Of course we don’t allow subjects to dictate content, but the basis for overruling her own self-identification is weak, and doing this would be in significant tension with the core principle of our BLP policy which insists on respect for living persons. The weakness of the case for doing so consists of the fact that only some sources use the term “Russian-Israeli”, while a great many sources use “Israeli”. Again, the main reason for the close is the consensus in the discussion here, a consensus that is well grounded in relevant policies. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 10:10, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

---

Let's discuss and decide here whether we should mention her as Russian Israeli or as Israeli. This is since the debate is endless and has not been solved until now and it is for a very long time. ArmorredKnight (talk) 14:15, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

I am in favour of mentioning her only as Israeli, This is since she was born in Israel. She has only Israeli citizenship and she liives in Israel ArmorredKnight (talk) 14:18, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

@ArmorredKnight I find the current situation quite absurd, she's labelled as Russian-Israeli, yet we add a footnote saying she was born in Israel, does not hold a Russian citizenship and doesn't consider herself Russian? That's quite odd.

I think she should most probably be labelled as simply Israeli, and not Russian-Israeli, but then again, could someone please clarify what are we referring to when we call her Russian-Israeli/Russian, is it her citizenship, nationality, place of birth, the place where her career started? Doctorbeak (talk) 17:03, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

I can explain this one!

It used to be Israeli and the note explained that RSs call her Russian-Israeli too but that she was not born in russia, didn't hold russian citizenship nor does she consider herself Russian.

Then another editor changed Israeli to Russian Israeli, but didn't change the note, creating confusion.

On the topic of what does Russian-Israeli indicate, It is complex, since that descriptor can have multiple interpretations, which, I think, is at the crux of the problem.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 18:24, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Frankly, how many times do we need to have this discussion? I have been steadfast in my opinions on this since the article was created, she should be "Russian-Israeli" or at the very least "Russian and Israeli." I also do not mind if the order is reversed to "Israeli-Russian" or "Israeli and Russian." I have seen no arguments for only mentioning Israeli other than nationalist talking points. She was a Russian singer coincidentally born in Israel for the majority of her professional career, and her Israeli career began only two years ago. I also fail to see the "but she represented Israel in Eurovision, not Russia" argument when she quite literally attempted to represent Russia at the junior version a few years earlier into her career. { [ ( jjj 1238 ) ] } 17:19, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Lets not have Straw man. The arguments against calling her Russian, is that; she is not ethnically Russian; she has no Russian citizenship; and she was not born in Russia.

I think those are strong arguments and I wonder why you ignor from them. 46.116.251.199 (talk) 17:26, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure why we're using all this OR to figure out what to describe when reliable sources exist, and they seem to say 'Russian-Israeli'

https://www.euronews.com/culture/2024/03/04/eurovision-2024-israel-agrees-to-change-lyrics-to-its-controversial-entry-october-rain

https://www.voanews.com/a/israel-to-revise-eurovision-entries-said-to-allude-to-hamas-attack-/7511788.html

https://www.timesofisrael.com/israels-eurovision-singer-eden-golan-upbeat-despite-scrutiny/

https://inews.co.uk/culture/music/who-is-eden-golan-what-israels-eurovision-entry-has-said-about-gaza-conflict-3048997

https://www.standard.co.uk/culture/music/eurovision-song-contest-israel-eden-golan-b1156685.html

Traumnovelle (talk) 03:26, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Collapse giant list of random pings. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:47, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
@KatzeChat, @Idansc, @Zlmark,@אלעד נעמתי, @Jjj1238, @KronosAlight, @C.Fred Please also tag everyone else that has been involved in previous dicussion about the subject ArmorredKnight (talk) 16:32, 24 May 2024 (UTC) @Pacifico ArmorredKnight (talk) 16:38, 24 May 2024 (UTC) @פסיפיקו ArmorredKnight (talk) 16:39, 24 May 2024 (UTC) @MaskedSinger ArmorredKnight (talk) 16:45, 24 May 2024 (UTC) Stop pinging a random selection of editors from this talk page. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:46, 24 May 2024 (UTC) they are not random. It is only editors that have discussed this subject in this discussion page. ArmorredKnight (talk) 16:47, 24 May 2024 (UTC) @Zanahary ArmorredKnight (talk) 16:45, 24 May 2024 (UTC) @Doctorbeak ArmorredKnight (talk) 16:46, 24 May 2024 (UTC) @Tataral you are welcomed to put your insight her. ArmorredKnight (talk) 14:20, 24 May 2024 (UTC) @Speederzzz you are also welcomed to put your insight her. ArmorredKnight (talk) 14:24, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Here's some reliable sources using "Israeli"
Associated Press
Times of Israel
USA Today
Jewish Journal
The JC
Ynet
The Guardian
BBC
Forbes
Jerusalem Post
EDIT:
Huffington Post
i24
News.com.au
Haaretz
PBS
The Forward
The Independent
Fox News Zanahary (talk) 05:59, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Half your sources are Israeli. Traumnovelle (talk) 06:03, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

By my count, only the Times of Israel, the Jerusalem Post, and Ynet are Israeli, which would be three out of ten. Israeli sources are also, of course, more likely to report on an Israeli singer who represented Israel at Eurovision—and they're not unreliable for biographical information about Israelis. Zanahary (talk) 06:06, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Alright, half the sources are Jewish, happy now? Traumnovelle (talk) 06:13, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

You should really just say "Jewish" when that's what you mean. Zanahary (talk) 06:17, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

That’s not an appropriate way to characterise a source for the purposes of evaluating the veracity of it’s claims. FortunateSons (talk) 06:32, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Considering potential bias is appropriate when evaluating sources. Traumnovelle (talk) 06:50, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Why would you consider that an issue? FortunateSons (talk) 06:13, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Because Israeli/Jewish sources obviously would want to emphasise someone's Israeli/Jewishness. Same reason I didn't bother to cite any Russian sources. Traumnovelle (talk) 06:14, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Do you have any evidences that Jewish/Israeli source want to hide other part of nationality of people that are Israeli/Jewish?

Because if not, then your assumption is based on your imagination. 2A02:14C:5400:B900:547D:B1A3:B978:2275 (talk) 10:51, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

I have to go to work, so I can't look for myself right now. but are there any new reliable sources in your list that aren't in my earlier list? If so I want to add them, make sure it is up to date and all. (If you don't have time to check, I'll do it myself once I'm free.)

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 07:14, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, there are. Feel free to copy your updated lists into this discussion if you think they'd be pertinent (I think so) Zanahary (talk) 07:18, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll update it during my break.

I'd rather just link/refer to my list instead of just plopping it down, since it's such a huge list and might make reading the discussion even more difficult.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Eden_Golan#Updated_sources_lists for those who wan't to know which list we're talking about. (Bare URL for ease of copying for myself and whomever wants to share it too.)

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 07:34, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

So my personal life and mental health went on a two day journey, but updating the list has been therapeutic. It includes most of your sources, I excluded two that seemed to be frowned upon by the community, i24 and News.com.au. If you think I made a mistake with that I'm open change if I can see a good argument for them, but honestly, I don't think more need to be added to get the point across.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 09:01, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Great, thank you! Zanahary (talk) 22:44, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

100% Israeli. This is who she is, this is what she wants. This is common sense. Anyone else saying otherwise has some sort of agenda which I'd love to know what it is. MaskedSinger (talk) 14:35, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

@MaskedSinger: Your repeated pattern of unfounded allegations of editors having an "agenda" and other similar comments (1, 2, 3, 4 etc) are blatant WP:AGF violations and are deeply unhelpful. Please cease with these now. ser! ^{(chat to me - see my edits)} 14:42, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

@Ser! Whats unfounded about them? MaskedSinger (talk) 14:44, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

You have no factual backing for your repeated allegations. WP:AGF is not optional. ser! ^{(chat to me - see my edits)} 14:45, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

I have blocked MaskedSinger 1 week for casting aspersions. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:55, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Question for anyone with more knowledge on this than I do: are editors with less than 500 edits, such as the one who created this, permitted to create RfCs under WP:ARBPIA? To the best of my knowledge they're not, but I can't be 100%. @Makeandtoss:, apologies for the random ping but since you've removed comments from editors who weren't allowed to edit here I was wondering if you might know. ser! ^{(chat to me - see my edits)} 14:47, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

As far as I know they are limited to making edit requests only. Makeandtoss (talk) 14:48, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

I guess the real question is if this is part of the Arab/Israel conflict, broadly construed. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:51, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

I would say that it isn't, even if much of the attention driven here might be motivated by the controversy associated with the current war FortunateSons (talk) 14:53, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Yeah, good question. Given the high-profile controversy of Israel's participation because of actions in that conflict I would see it broadly construed falling under that, but it's open to consideration I suppose. ser! ^{(chat to me - see my edits)} 14:55, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Seeing her treatment at Eurovision and the discussion around her from protesters, politicians (both Israeli and foreign), other Eurovision candidates (especially the Polish, Irish and Swiss participants) I think it is impossible to separate her fame from the Palestinian-Israeli conflict at this point. Many (but of course not all, she is also a good singer) calls to support her did not come for her music but to support Israel on the international stage. (I recall a dutch politician who encouraged voting for her, but did not even mention her music, if I remember correctly)

Besides that, I feel that there are some editors who definitely interpret this page as an extension of the conflict. The quote from MaskedSinger (I saw the block) comes to mind:

"Since October 7, wikipedia has been out of control. Frightening reflection of the world we live in."

Which seems to tie the conflict to this page in their eyes.

I'll wait with giving my thoughts in this topic until this administrative stuff has been worked through.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 16:04, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

I have opened a discussion at AN to get more input on the applicability of ARBPIA. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:47, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

So just to check, It's fine if non-500/30 users give their opinion in this RFC right?

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 09:08, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

• Leaning towards "Israeli" only. (Summoned by bot) Obviously we should typically be making such a determination on the basis of the WP:RS alone, not WP:original research by way of WP:synthesis. That said, if I am to credit the observations about the sourcing above as accurate, sources are all over the place on the appropriate descriptor. Nevertheless,the following facts seem to be undisputed: the subject was born in Israel, she has no attested Russian heritage, she never had or pursued Russian citizenship, and she no longer lives in Russia or has plans to permanently immigrate there. In an edge case where the sources disagree on the proper label, and it's entirely reasonable to assume that some entertainment industry press may have been unaware of the details of her background and simply referred to her as "Russian" presumptively or in reflection of her notability there, I think it's probably permissible for us to ascribe more weight to the sources which align with the facts as we understand them.
  There is a counter-argument to that (besides WP:OR), which is that what it means to be "Russian" (or a member of any nationaly-defined identity) has many different meanings, and having spent the vast majority of one's life in a place and achieves some cultural fame there, might very well apply in the eyes of some. Still, taking the information and sources as a whole, I'm most comfortable with just "Israeli".
  Regardless of any of the above or the ultimate outcome of this RfC, a substantial portion of the remainder of the article (and even the lead) concerns precisely the details of the subject's background and biographical facts relevant to the very question being debated here, so the reader will have every bit of information they need to arrive at their own conclusions and decide which descriptor is most accurate, so this debate is largely a tempest in a teapot, and I'd like to suggest that anyone going to the mat over what label appears in the first sentence is losing perspective, whether their motivations are nationalistically-derived or not. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 23:12, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

  Amending comments: above I say that there doesn't seem to be any dispute as to the subject's Russian citizenship status, but having read yet more of the previous discussions, I see this actually is something that has been debated previously. However there does seem to be a rough consensus in the discussion in question that the one source expressly claiming she had Russian citizenship may not be particularly reliable as a sole source for this claim. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 04:44, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Strong vote for Israeli only. She was born in Israel and does not have Russian citizenship. The time she moved to Russia or the length of her stay has no relevance on her citizenship status. Per my understanding of Russian citizenship law (a good article), one has to apply for Russian citizenship, apart from exceptional cases like Gérard Depardieu and Steven Seagal (whose Russian citizenship isn't mentioned in either lead, only in the infobox); it is not given automatically. Furthermore, the very article we are discussing includes sources that show both that Eden is not ethnically Russian, which would in my opinion be the only reason to call her "Russian-Israeli" (and probably not in the lead anyway; we don't list Lady Gaga as "Italian-American" despite her often memed "I'm an Italian girl from New York"), and that she does not feel Russian.

In the Mako interview, she states plainly that Russians constantly reminded her of the fact that she was not Russian: "There was always this thing that I'm 'Eden Golan,' I'm not Russian and I'm not part of them, I'm Israeli. I was a foreigner there." An English-language profile for The New York Times reiterates this: "But Golan said that she never felt at home in Russia. Music industry figures told her that she would need to change her name to something more Russian-sounding if she wanted to succeed, she said: 'No one accepted me as one of their own.'" To go back to Mako, she also talks about having never gotten used to Russia and always wanted to return to Israel, and she mentions that she "flourished" once she was able to do so, further indicating a lack of self-identification with Russia.

To summarise:

• She was born in Israel to Israeli Jewish parents who were born in the Soviet Union but not the Russian part of it. Per The Forward, "her parents' families both left Soviet countries for Israel — her mother is Ukrainian, her father Latvian."
• She moved to Russia as a child because of her father's job and never got Russian citizenship during her time in the country. She always felt like a foreigner, which was exacerbated by the fact that Russians constantly reminded her of her Israeli (and Jewish) identity.
• She has identified herself as only Israeli in every interview I've found (of which I only gave a few).

What makes her Russian, really? In my opinion, it is pretty straightforward that she's just Israeli. Bizarre Bizarre^{Talk modern to me} 01:28, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

• Israeli. It's not as much a nationality issue as a question of national ties. Frankly, up until a few months ago, I would have said Israeli–Russian, or to omit the descriptor and say she was born in Israel and has competed in Russia's Junior Eurovision selection process. However, competing in the Eurovision competition for Israel has changed the perspective: she now has a clear connection to Israel, not only through birth (and presumably citizenship) but also through Eurovision.
  (Aside: If she were a football player, we might have called her Russian up until a few months ago, since she was in the tryout program for the Russian national team at the youth level. However, now she has a cap in a full international for Israel.) —C.Fred (talk) 02:38, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

References

Israeli. She has no Russian citizenship, her parents are from Soviet Ukraine and Latvia, she lived for some years in Russia and her career began there. None of this makes her Russian-Israeli. She only calls herself Israeli. She lives in Israel. She's a citizen of only Israel. Reliable sources use both designations; we should go with Israeli. Detail about her childhood can go in her personal/early life section. Zanahary (talk) 02:38, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Israeli-Russian citizen as clearly identified by Euronews, Times of Israel and Russia Today. Makeandtoss (talk) 13:45, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Russia Today?? Zanahary (talk) 14:29, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, especially considering that they have no conflict of interest in saying she has a Russian citizenship, as seen by Russia pro-Palestinian positions over past few months. Makeandtoss (talk) 15:06, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

I still think RT would be a disallowed source, WP:RS states:

"There is community consensus from a request for comment to deprecate the source. The source is considered generally unreliable, and use of the source is generally prohibited. Despite this, the source may be used for uncontroversial self-descriptions, although reliable secondary sources are still preferred."

This is clearly controversial and against self-description, so RT should not be used.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 15:15, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, RT is clearly not appropriate here. We are unable and should not attempt to discern the complicated incentive structure that led to their statement, as that would be OR. FortunateSons (talk) 16:12, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

There also other many reliable sources that define her only as Israeli 85.65.235.103 (talk) 18:06, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

There are multiple other sources that state 'Russian-Israeli', see my comment. Traumnovelle (talk) 03:27, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

@Traumnovelle, there are also multiple sources that state only 'Israeli'.

Why are you ignoring from this? 2A02:14F:1F4:B20F:0:0:55A0:2851 (talk) 07:32, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

I didn't ignore anything. I've only now seen Zanahary's updated list.

I haven't given a position on which should be used - I only commented in regards to the non-policy and guideline arguments that focused on their beliefs on citizenship and whatnot over what sources state. If I were to give an opinion now it would be neutral. Traumnovelle (talk) 07:34, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Israeli only. Unless someone can come up with sources that state explicitly that she has held Russian citizenship (present sources don't say that, they could well be referring to her heritage/career beginnings, much as De Niro is an Italian American, but his citizenship is American). The text makes clear that she began her career in Moscow, but that doesn't make her Russian any more than The Beatles are German because they started out in Hamburg. Although it can have other meanings, stating someone's nationality has the primary meaning of the country in which they hold/held citizenship and/or were born, both confirm Israeli here. For the record, I don't hold much store by self-identification, especially as in this instance there is a clear benefit for emphasing the legitimacy of her claim to be 'Israeli'. Regardless of how sincere the identification is, you can't will yourself into citizenship anywhere on the planet. Her early career makes clear her connection with Russia, but that doesn't make her Russian.Pincrete (talk) 04:32, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Reliable sources refer to her as Russian-Israeli, reliables sources don't refer to The Beatles as German. Traumnovelle (talk) 05:43, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Reliable sources have used both "Russian-Israeli" and "Israeli" for her. They seem to lean more towards calling her plain Israeli. Zanahary (talk) 06:00, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Reliable sources also refer to De Niro as Italian American or even just Italian within a US context, where his citizenship is not doubted. The specific meaning there is obviously a reference to his heritage rather than his citizenship. If we are using 'nationality' principally to record citizenship - which is our common practice, then we can safely interpret sources. Her time in Russia and her starting her career there are fully recorded, but don't impact her 'nationality'. IMO, if we describe anyone as 'name of country'-ish, we need to be clear about what we mean if the meaning is other than the obvious 'citizenship' one (eg Russian-born American). Pincrete (talk) 04:17, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

• This has been debated to death and there is consensus to describe her as Russian-Israeli. She has been widely described as Russian-Israeli by reliable sources. Note that there has been a lot of canvassing going on, there seems to be an outside campaign to change it for purely nationalist reasons. Consensus on Wikipedia means that no convincing policy-based arguments have been provided for omitting her Russian background in the lead. She spent most of her life in Russia and moved to Israel one and a half years ago, after a years-long career as a musician and public figure in Russia and contestant in Russian TV productions. Just one and a half years ago she would have been considered primarily Russian for Wikipedia's purposes. So Russian-Israeli is a fair, accurate and objective description. --Tataral (talk) 23:48, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

  There is obviously not consensus—hence the RfC. The policy-based arguments being made are that sources lean “Israeli” and that that designation better matches her identity and the reality of her nationality. Zanahary (talk) 04:55, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

  "This has been debated to death and there is consensus to describe her as Russian-Israeli."

  @Tataral Why are saying false things that you know very well they are false?

  Why repeating this lie? 2A02:14C:5400:B900:547D:B1A3:B978:2275 (talk) 10:48, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

• Israeli only, with a footnote like

  {{Efn|Golan has been described as Russian-Israeli by several news outlets. She grew up in Russia, but she was born in Israel, does not consider herself Russian, and does not hold Russian citizenship.}}
  

  (or something along those lines) to explain why some might consider her Russian-Israeli. I think this is the best compromise to keep both sides of this argument happy. LivLovisa (talk) 22:09, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

  This seems accurate. I don't agree that the concept of compromise should be considered in WP content discussions; it should all be about sources and policy. Zanahary (talk) 22:27, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

  Yeah, compromise should not be an influence in wikipedia. Either something can stand on its own merits or something cannot. A footnote like this can help solve confusion in readers that might have seen her described as Russian-Israeli and don't understand why wikipedia "ignores" that. One might erroneously think she has double citizenship if they read Russian-Israeli in a news article and then when they come to wikipedia start believing the article is of low quality.

  Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 22:37, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

  What do you mean? Someone will get the wrong impression from a news article, Wikipedia corrects those wrong impressions, and that somehow means Wikipedia has done something wrong? I don't understand. LivLovisa (talk) 22:43, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

  Basically if we correct the news without explaining why news articles are wrong it might cause confusion. Most users do not even know of the talk page, sadly.

  Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 09:10, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, hence the footnote. LivLovisa (talk) 10:05, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, I support the footnote, sorry If i wasn't clear enough about that.

  Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 10:20, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

• Israeli. A web search for "singer eden golan" shows many reliable sources using "Israeli singer" and none for "Russian-Israeli" on the first few pages. A footnote is unnecessary because the second sentence of the article better explains actual facts; the current wording Golan has been described as Russian-Israeli by most news outlets is flagrantly original research and apparently wrong. Hameltion (talk | contribs) 02:24, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

  The 'original research' is wrong because your original research (which somehow overlooked the dozens of reliable sources that use Russian-Israeli...) differs? Most is inappropriate but the hatnote is fine. Traumnovelle (talk) 02:30, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

  WP:AGF please. your original research / somehow overlooked: Discussing one's process of searching for sources is appropriate on the talk page, and I hoped my process would avoid the appearance of cherry picking. Hameltion (talk | contribs) 03:13, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

  Did something change in the number of sources using Russian-Israeli? Last time I checked they were about equal and all research in how many uses of each was done by me, thus making it WP:OR.

  Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 07:40, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

  The "most news outlets" was true when the note was first written. Since then things have changed but nobody has updated the content of the note. I think "many news outlets" or simply "by various news outlets" would be better wording since my last source analysis provided 19 R-I vs 20 I. I do think having a note explain the confusion can be useful specifically because R-I is so widespread. I do think the part about being born in israel can be taken out because it is explained later, but the lack of russian citizenship and self-identification would be useful. If it could be outside of a note, that would be better I think, but I am unsure where to place it without it becoming more prominent than I think it should be.

  So my suggestion for a note would be: "Golan has been described as Russian-Israeli by various(/many) news outlets. However, she does not consider herself Russian, and does not hold Russian citizenship."

  Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 07:37, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

  I think it'd be better to say various instead of the superlative most; however, I believe we are meant to avoid touching it before the RfC has concluded. Traumnovelle (talk) 07:39, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

  Ah, in that case you can ignore my last comment made just after you send this one haha. I think, since discussion had stopped, people seemed to agree in an informal conclusion of the RfC. But we should get someone to close it soon don't you think? Eurovision is over and it seems almost nobody is interested in the topic anymore.

  Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 07:42, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

  Could try WP:Closure requests. Traumnovelle (talk) 07:46, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

  Do you want to or should I, just to make sure they don't get a double request.

  Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 07:47, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

  You can go ahead with doing it. Traumnovelle (talk) 07:51, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

  The request has been made, now we wait.

  Funny how this can rhyme in some English dialects, even though made and wait look nothing like eachother.

  Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 08:43, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

  Which dialects? How would the rhyming syllable be pronounced? ꧁Zanahary꧂ 09:05, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

  I can't think of the exact dialect, but both ending in /eɪt/ is something I've heard. Possibly dutch accented english, since we often turn a d at the end of a word into a t. Which is annoying for a kid who has dyslexia and tries to learn the language (me). It gets worse when we have verbs that end in -dt pronounced as t.

  Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 09:37, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Eden is NOT RUSSIAN!

Hello, my name is Eddie and I am the father of Eden Golan.

This entire issue is simply outrageous! Eden, like the rest of the family, does not and has never had Russian citizenship! Never! Our whole family and Eden are all Israeli citizens! We lived in Russia due to my work and had visas! Neither we nor Eden had Russian citizenship!

We have already contacted the editors of this site several times, the issue was corrected, and yet someone there keeps bringing this misinformation up again and again! Enough already! We're fed up! Don't the editors who keep writing this nonsense have anything better to do? Don't you have more important things to focus on? How many times do we need to correct you and you keep at it! Enough is enough!

I am once again making it unequivocally clear: Eden is an Israeli singer! She does not have Russian citizenship and has never had Russian citizenship! The fact that Eden lived in Russia for a few years does not make her Russian or a holder of Russian citizenship!

Is this finally clear to you now?! 147.235.146.145 (talk) 16:17, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

unfortunately, for some editors, the facts don't matter. But I am sorry for the mislabeling ArmorredKnight (talk) 16:34, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

What is clear to me is one of two things: either the IP is telling the truth, and we have conflict of interest issues to deal with as well as everything else, or the IP is being intentionally disruptive. In either case, the article reflects what is verified in independent reliable sources, not the claims of some random user. —C.Fred (talk) 16:56, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

problem is that there are sources that call her Israeli and there are sources that call her Russian Israeli. So we can go both way (in that regard). הויקיפדון (talk) 17:01, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

If this is indeed Eden’s father, how are there now COI issues to deal with? This IP has never edited before. Zanahary (talk) 17:24, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Zanahary, I think you better response to the rfc as that is what decide eventually. 46.116.251.199 (talk) 17:28, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

@Zanahary Per their comment: "We have already contacted the editors of this site several times." —C.Fred (talk) 02:24, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Gotcha. Vague, though, and shows a misunderstanding of Wikipedia; could mean they emailed the WMF or something lol Zanahary (talk) 02:33, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

You'd be better off telling the media to fix their description then, presuming you are whom you claim to be. Traumnovelle (talk) 03:29, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

He doesn't need to do this. because many of the media has already been describing her as Israeli. 2A02:14C:5400:B900:547D:B1A3:B978:2275 (talk) 10:46, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

She has been widely described as Russian-Israeli by reliable sources and is Russian-Israeli for Wikipedia's purposes. It has nothing to do with citizenship. She lived in Russia for most of her life and was a contestant in Russian TV productions and music competitions. That is a strong connection to Russia. --Tataral (talk) 23:57, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

@Tataral stop misleading the people. you know very well that there are also more than enough sources that described her only as Israeli. 2A02:14C:5400:B900:547D:B1A3:B978:2275 (talk) 10:45, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

"She lived in Russia for most of her life and was a contestant in Russian TV productions and music competitions. That is a strong connection to Russia."

That connection doesn't make her Russian. As long as she didn't get Russian citizenship, she is not Russian, even if she lives there more than 30 years. 2A02:14C:5400:B900:547D:B1A3:B978:2275 (talk) 10:47, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

citizenship isn't necessarily what determines the description. Right now the discussion is focused on MOS:NATIONALITY, mostly on

"In most modern-day cases, this will be the country, region, or territory where the person is currently a national or permanent resident; or, if the person is notable mainly for past events, where the person was such when they became notable."

Specifically the final sentence is what causes the argument, since there is no objective way to describe whether this applicable.

I still think you can make a good case for Israeli without solely focusing on citizenship. You could argue that she is 100x more famous for eurovision than any of the Russian competitions. But I'm still waiting a bit before giving my opinion on the whole ordeal.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 12:40, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Footnote compromise?

The current way of describing her nationality is very misleading. I think the text in the footnote (as it is right now) is really good, as long as the main claim is adjusted to simply state Israeli. I think a compromise of saying Eden Golan is an Israeli singer would please both sides of this argument. LivLovisa (talk) 00:29, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

I think you better write your comment in the rfc. 2A02:14C:5400:EC00:85BF:7F67:B580:31B5 (talk) 07:11, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Pardon my ignorance, what does RFC mean in this context? LivLovisa (talk) 07:26, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Request For Comment, it's under the header "rfc (Eden Golan Russian Israeli or Israeli)"

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk me) 08:28, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 30 October 2024

Golan is described as a Russian emigrant to Israel in the relevant categories, however this category is misleading since she doesn't own Russian citizenship. Replacing it with Israeli expatriates in Russia would be more precise. 62.74.24.206 (talk) 17:18, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. 𝚈𝚘𝚟𝚝 (𝚝𝚊𝚕𝚔𝚟𝚝) 18:49, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

@𝚈𝚘𝚟𝚝 Did you read early life section opening line "When Golan was six years old, she and her parents moved to Russia, due to her father's work, and lived in Moscow." and the note at the first line of the article that says she doesn't own Russian citizenship or consider herself Russian? 62.74.24.206 (talk) 19:05, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Seeing English isn't my native language, does migrant inherently mean citizenship has to be attained? I always assumed it simply meant someone who went to live in another country, be it an expat, refugee or someone intending to integrate into the new country.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk) 14:46, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

It's definitely not the same, Russian refers to Russian people and Golan only had part of her career in Russia. So calling her Russian is wrong and misleading. 62.74.24.190 (talk) 10:29, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

I just now notice my brain did a case of the dyslexia. I thought the tag was people who emigrated to Russia from Israel, not Russian people who emigrated to Israel. I love having reading problems! /s

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk) 12:57, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

No worries. Just add Category:Israeli expatriates in Russia if possible. 62.74.24.190 (talk) 13:07, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Is that still valid since she moved back again? The category only contains one person too so it doesn't seem too often used.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk) 13:24, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

•  Done -- in the spirit of WP:BLPCAT. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 11:29, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Nomoskedasticity Thank you. Please also add Category:Israeli expatriates in Russia. 62.74.24.190 (talk) 12:00, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 14 November 2024

Add Category:Jewish Eurovision Song Contest entrants to the list of categories. LivLovisa (talk) 00:30, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Done... - Adolphus79 (talk) 02:23, 14 November 2024 (UTC)