Talk:David Ferrie

Grammatical / Logical Error in Death and Aftermath section

The section currently reads: "The day the newspaper story first ran, Garrison aide Lou Ivon stated that Ferrie telephoned him to say: "You know what this news story does to me, don't you. I'm a dead man. From here on, believe me, I'm a dead man...."[37]" It is completely unclear what news story is being referred to. Implicitly it is a story of Ferrie's death, but then we are told of Ferrie's responding to it, so safe to assume that was not its subject. I don't have a copy of the book handy, hopefully someone can fix this. Surely there should be at least another sentence to contextualize this claim, or the sentences should be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.168.36.93 (talk) 09:08, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Untitled

David William Ferrie was an unusual person, probably misunderstood by many people. I was always interested in history and US presidents, and this took me into an interest in JFK and his assassination. I gravitated to an interest in the New Orleans aspects and this led to David Ferrie. I tried to chronologize the printed info about him, but a lot of this was unreliable. With the intent of "getting the goods" on him, I started collecting all available documents about him, and contacting people who knew him. I am about halfway through a book on Ferrie and am also working on a film about him.

There are two ways to look at him. In the traditional view, he was a villain, a man with CIA and organized crime connections who manipulated Lee Harvey Oswald in some way, resulting in JFK's death. But from those who knew him (and from documents), a counter-history emerges, of a much more complex man who felt that a chance crossing of paths with Oswald in 1955 led to false stories about him. In my study, I consider evidence relating to both views.

What do you think about David Ferrie? I would love to hear from any who knew him. — 64.12.116.5 11:24, 7 July 2005 (UTC)

No citation regarding JFK issues

How did all this information get posted regarding Ferrie's possible involvement in the so-called conspiracy against JFK? This is ridiculous. There is no citation given. All info related to JFK should be removed until citation is given. Garrison was someone that can not be taken seriously since he has been discredited. Oliver Stone makes movies and admitst that this film was not a documentary and he played fast and loose with the facts. I request removal of this nonsense. Jtpaladin 16:59, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I found a 5-paragraph article in the Times-Picayune of 11/27/63 announcing that Ferrie and two other men (Patrick L. Martens and Roland Beauboeuf) were released from custody on 11/26 after being arrested on 11/25 and "held for investigation by the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the Secret Service". The newspaper was unable to get any comment on the nature of the questioning, but I think it's safe to say that three days after the assassination, the FBI and Secret Service were primarily focused on that investigation. Csnizik (talk) 02:42, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

All of the information in the article related to allegations against Ferrie is accurately stated:. for the most part, "Jack Martin alleged that..."

To a certian degree I agree with the fact there is no citation, however most of the citations can be handled by reading "On the Trail of the Assassins" by Jisim Garrison, which by the way neither the book nor he has been discredited (it is difficult for a discredited person to be elected appealb s court judge ionn new orleans until the day he dies). Let justice be done though the heavens fall 22:01, 13 March 2007 (UTC) ……dorothy kilgallen learned of a meeting at Jack Ruby's club two weeks before the assassination, at which were present J.D. Tippett, the man who placed the JFK Wanted For Treason in the newspaper, a businessman and a fourth man whom she called the ferry man. Surely that proves beyond a shadow of doubt that there was, to put it mildly, something behind the curtains

Investigations

I have removed the anonymously added text, "Subsequent investigations have failed to link Ferrie to any direct involvement in the assassination or to an association with Oswald during his time in New Orleans" and added documentation of the investigative record of the Ferrie-Oswald connection. Joegoodfriend 20:41, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

William Gaudet

"In 1978, William Gaudet, a twenty-year CIA veteran…"

Perhaps it should be mentioned that the House Select Committee on Assassinations reviewed Gaudet's CIA file, but found no record reflecting any contact between him and the CIA after 1961. A CIA memorandum from 1976 said that,

The Domestic Collections Division (DCD) has an inactive file on William George Gaudet, former editor and publisher of the Latin American Report. The file shows that Gaudet was a source of the New Orleans DCD (Domestic Contacts Division) Resident Office from 1948 to 1955 during which period he provided foreign intelligence information on Latin American political and economic conditions resulting from his extensive travel in South and Central America in pursuit of journalistic interests. The file further indicates that Gaudet was a casual contact of the New Orleans Office between 1955 and 1961, when, at various times, he furnished fragmentary intelligence.

The implication of "twenty-year CIA veteran" overstates Gaudet's relationship. I recommend, "an informant to the CIA between 1948 and 1961" or "a CIA domestic contact between 1948 and 1961."

Gaudet testified in a deposition for the HSCA in 1978 that he had never met Oswald, although he had known of him prior to the assassination because Oswald had distributed literature near his office. Gaudet also stated that on one occasion he saw Oswald speaking to Guy Banister on a street corner. As to what he told author Anthony Summers in 1977, here is what Summers wrote,

For a man who declared himself plagued by mere coincidence, William Gaudet was strangely knowledgeable. While denying any involvement in the Oswald visit to Mexico, he made one remarkable admission. He said he had "known" Oswald in New Orleans. This once said, Gaudet quickly adjusted his statement, insisting now that he had merely observed Oswald handing out leaflets in the street, on several occasions, but always fleetingly. (Not in Your Lifetime, p. 266)

In his 1978 interview with Summers, Gaudet repeats what he told the HSCA, that he once saw Oswald talking with Banister. He also says, without further explanation, "I suppose you are looking to Ferrie. He was with Oswald … " (ibid.) Whether that ellipsis mark means that Gaudet had more to say that wasn't included, or that Gaudet just trailed off and left the sentence uncompleted, is not explained. With Oswald in 1963, or when? Gaudet may have been referring to Ferrie's and Oswald's participation in the local Civil Air Patrol in the 1950s. In any case, nowhere does Summers quote or paraphrase Gaudet as saying that he knew David Ferrie, or that Ferrie, Oswald and Banister had a working relationship. — Walloon 05:02, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Hi, sorry I haven't looked at this page in a long time or I would have gotten back to you. Suffice to say the points you make are valid, alter the text or delete the whole thing if you want to, experience has shown that you always use fine judgement. Joegoodfriend 18:51, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Although it's ten years later, per the above, I am removing the following section from the article:

In 1978, William Gaudet, a 20-year CIA informant who had worked out of an office at the International Trade Mart in New Orleans, told investigator Anthony Summers that Ferrie "was with Oswald," although Gaudet did not state where or when, or whether he knew this directly or by hearsay. Gaudet also said, "Another vital person is Sergio Arcacha Smith. I know he knew Oswald and knows more about the Kennedy affair than he ever admitted."

The former Executive Assistant to the Deputy Director of the CIA, Victor Marchetti, has claimed that David Ferrie was connected to the CIA. Marchetti told author Anthony Summers that "...he observed consternation on the part of then CIA Director Richard Helms and other senior officials when Ferrie's name was first publicly linked with the assassination in 1967." Marchetti said that he asked a CIA colleague about this who told him that "Ferrie had been a contract agent to the Agency in the early sixties and had been involved in some of the Cuban activities."

Marchetti's claim, however, is contradicted by internal CIA documents that state that the Agency never contacted Ferrie at any time, and that there had been no documented Agency utilization of Ferrie.

This material falls under WP:REDFLAG so we need to have "multiple high-quality sources" reporting on it. Cobbling together primary source material in an attempt to support Summers is a form of OR. - Location (talk) 15:50, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

And I disagree. I wrote much of that material ten years ago, and hammered out a hard-won compromise consensus of the editors. Now you do the same. Joegoodfriend (talk) 15:57, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

I don't see any discussion of that other than what is above, but I'm happy to have another one. Should I start it at the bottom or continue it here? - Location (talk) 16:01, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Whatever you think will work. Joegoodfriend (talk) 16:13, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

OK. See below. - Location (talk) 05:26, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

Good job. Make the change :) Joegoodfriend (talk) 15:32, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

Per the RfC, I have removed the material pertaining to William Gaudet. I plan to address the other claim in the near future. -Location (talk) 15:21, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

NPOV dispute

This section is not neutral unless it discusses Martin's history of mental illness and his retraction of his claims. Gamaliel (talk) 00:29, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't get it. What "retraction of his claims" are you referring to? Joegoodfriend (talk) 01:57, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm looking for a reference to it. Even if my memory is faulty on that point, the article should discuss Martin's long history of mental illness, alcoholism (Garrison initially called him "an undependable drunk" before embracing his account), and unreliability. Gamaliel (talk) 17:39, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Martin never retracted his statements, but the history of mental illness, and alcoholism should be placed in this article in a sentence or two-- for balance. Ramsquire ^{(throw me a line)} 19:29, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I agree with the editors. I'll take a stab at this and get back to you. Joegoodfriend (talk) 20:26, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Hey, the tag disappeared. Care to put it back?Joegoodfriend (talk) 04:46, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Ciravolo.jpg

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BetacommandBot (talk) 13:21, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale provided for Image:Ciravolo.jpg

See: image description page

Mtracy9 (talk) 20:48, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Consolidate Info

As Ferrie has no notability outside his involvement in the Shaw trial. I suggest creating a new article called "Persons related to the Shaw trial" or something to that effect, and merging this article into it along with the ones on Russo, Bannister, Martin, etc. Any opposition? Ramsquire ^{(throw me a line)} 23:04, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

There is already a Trial of Clay Shaw article. I think most of the figures you mention can be covered there. This article is better separate I think. Ferrie does have some notability just for his Marcello ties. Joegoodfriend (talk) 00:11, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Very well then, I'll leave this one alone. But for size issues I will be taking out the Key Witnesses and Person section from the Trial article and creating an entirely separate article if I don't hear opposition in the next couple of days. Ramsquire ^{(throw me a line)} 23:12, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

On second thought, I think this is a good idea after all. I've been wanting to work Dean Andrews into an article for some time, but couldn't think of a good way to do it. Joegoodfriend (talk) 00:32, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Jim Garrison?

I contest that the words written or spoken by Jim Garrison are not an acceptable source given the lies contained in On the Trail of the Assassins (See http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/jimlie.htm) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.234.250.71 (talk) 17:57, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Only twice in this article is anything referenced specifically to Garrison. The first is his alleged conversation with Senator Long. I don't recall Long ever denying the conversation. The second is about Banister's activities. Since no one doubts that Guy Banister was assisting anti-Castro Cubans in running guns to Cuba, what's your point? And by the way, why do you refuse to sign your posts? Joegoodfriend (talk) 19:23, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

In fact, the only evidence for what you think "no one doubts" is Garrison't unsupported claims. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jmcadams1 (talk • contribs) 03:25, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Not only that, but without Jim Garrison, no one would have ever heard of David Ferrie (along with many others) and his connection to Oswald. So Garrison IS a prime source. He lost the Shaw trial but we all know he was onto something. He probably already found it and pieced it together until some broke part of the puzzle. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.28.93.188 (talk) 04:43, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

"We all know he was on to something ... " BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA ... obviously the jury didn't. Dean Andrews, who started all the "Clay Bertrand" stuff with his BS, admitted on the stand it was BS; Perry Russo later said all his testimony was extracted via drugs and threats; when the Clinton witnesses were asked why they hadn't come forward in four years, they replied "nobody asked"; Garrison called a "sneak witness" who had his daughter fingerprinted when she went off to college lest somebody try to plant a ringer on him when she came back; and Jack Martin was so obviously bogus that Garrison didn't even TRY to use him in court. Open and shut case? Indeed. MrG 63.227.5.169 (talk) 22:05, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Use of HSCA appendix reports

In several sentences of this article, editors state as facts, items that were recited in the HSCA appendix. This is problematic since these appendices are simply staff reports which were often contradicted by other reports. Many of these items were eventually deemed unworthy to put into the final report, while others were found to be false. For example although Ferrie did make some controversial comments about Kennedy at the MOWW speech, and was asked to leave the podium, they did allow him to finish the speech after he cooled down. Without that context, it travels close to the line of violating NPOV. Ramsquire ^{(throw me a line)} 17:06, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Not an easy subject to tackle. If you're willing to do this research, more power to you. Joegoodfriend (talk) 02:17, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Here is what Wikipedia has to say about reliable sources in the context of a neutral point of view:

Biased or opinionated sources

"Wikipedia articles are required to present a neutral point of view. However, reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective. Common sources of bias include political, financial, religious, philosophical, or other beliefs.

"Sometimes "non-neutral" sources are the best possible sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a subject." BrandonTR (talk) 08:50, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Mafia Kingfish

I can't believe there is no mention about the book Mafia Kingfish, Ferrie is probably mentioned on at least 100 pages. He set Oswald up as the patsy for the JFK murder while working with Carlos Marcello. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.15.222.8 (talk) 18:49, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

Of the hundreds pro-conspiracy books mentioning Ferrie, Mafia Kingfish is a small fish in a big pond. Is there a unique point in the book that needs to be made? Location (talk) 20:53, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

Use of Garrison as Source

This article uses Garrison's book On the Train of the Assassins and his Playboy interview as sources. Garrison is absurdly unreliable on this case.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/jimlie.htm

Note that latter-day Garrison supporters have pretty much tried to sanitize (by failing to discuss it) a lot of wild and wacky notions that Garrison had. But those notions reflect on his credibility:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/jimloon1.htm http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/jimloon2.htm http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/jimloon3.htm http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/jimloon4.htm http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/jimloon5.htm

Nothing should be stated as a fact in the article unless a source much more reliable than Garrison confirms it.

John McAdams

Garrison is used as a citation five times in the article. 2 of those 5 references also cite other sources. I don't think any of the text associated with these five references is considered controversial in terms of the facts. Joegoodfriend (talk) 15:51, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Interesting that you should be using Warren Commission apologist John McAdam's website as a source for claiming that Garrison is unreliable, when Wiki policy prohibits using a web site [remove per BLP] as a reliable source. BrandonTR (talk) 00:12, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Brandon, I believe this post was started by the actual John McAdams himself. Far out eh? Joegoodfriend (talk) 02:32, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia policy does prohibit using Wikipedia pages as a forum for name-calling directed at living individuals. You've been warned about this many times. Gamaliel (talk) 03:19, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Who is name calling? I'm just expressing an opinion. As for the post being started by John McAdams, all I can say is, "that figures." I guess McAdams needs to be informed that his website is not considered a reliable source, as per Wikipedia policy. BrandonTR (talk) 04:47, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Jim Marrs

Jim Marrs is a WP:FRINGE source, widely known as one who embraces any number of fringe theories on Bigfoot, 9/11, UFOs, etc. "The mainstream media has indeed tended to dismiss Marrs out of hand." (Contemporary Authors Online. Detroit: Gale, 2008) Until this author is demonstrated to have met WP:RS criteria and to not violate FRINGE criteria, I will be removing citations of him from the article. Traditionally on Wikipedia, the onus is on those who wish to add information to demonstrate its acceptability under Wikipedia policy. Gamaliel (talk) 21:26, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

While Jim Marrs may have embraced what some might consider fringe theories on certain subjects, it does not logically follow that what Marrs has written on the JFK assassination is fringe. BrandonTR (talk) 00:02, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps, but it does mean that he has a significant burden to overcome to be considered a reliable source in one particular area since he is in general such an unreliable and fringe source by Wikipedia standards. Gamaliel (talk) 03:03, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

The burden is on you to show that Marrs is an unreliable source regarding the JFK assassination, since you are the one making the claim. BrandonTR (talk) 04:39, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

WP:BURDEN: "The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material". Gamaliel (talk) 05:29, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

You forgot to mention the 2nd clause of the Wiki sentence: "... and [the burden of evidence] is satisfied by providing a reliable source that directly supports the material." BrandonTR (talk) 06:43, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

and where is your reliable source demonstrating that Marrs meets RS criteria? Gamaliel (talk) 13:11, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

This is a tough call for me. On the one hand, he's clearly among those "researchers" who embrace every fringe theory that comes down the road. However, I'm not aware that Marrs has said anything about the JFK assassination that's considered so outlandish by the research community that he can definitely be called unreliable on the subject. But I think this is easily solved - just use other sources for the same text. David Ferrie's suicide note is quoted many other places. Joegoodfriend (talk) 16:05, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

I agree. There are abundant reliable sources on the JFK assassination, and there's nothing essential in Marrs' account that requires we cite an unreliable work. There's no reason we should waste any further time on this matter. Gamaliel (talk) 19:23, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Sources

Regardless of Wikipedia guidelines, the fact is that this article is based almost entirely on the HSCA documents. That is a very one-sided presentation of events. There is a voluminous literature out there concerning the JFK assassination, including much information on David Ferrie. Some of it is wacky, some delusional, but also much of it is objective, intelligent discussion, even if at times it is at odds with the HSCA findings. Readers of an encyclopedia deserve to see all sides of an issue of this importance. For example, nowhere in this article is mention made of the fact that David Ferrie was a competent classical pianist, whose concerts were well received. This is important, because it provides insight into his character, intelligence, and talent. We should not gloss over the fact that he "got a job with Eastern Airlines," as if he landed a menial position changing tires at Goodyear. In fact, he was a Lockheed Constellation Captain, a remarkable achievement in aviation. The Constellation had four Wright 3350 engines, the most complex piston engines ever in mass production. The Constellation cockpit had hundreds of gauges, instruments, levers, switches, etc. with which the pilot had to be completely familiar, as well as being familiar with all the complex aircraft systems: hydraulic, electrical, pneumatic, etc. Not to mention the raw piloting talent required just to handle the airliner in all phases of flight. David Ferrie received excellent appraisals for his abilities, he was fired because in those years, you could not be publically gay. No mention is made also of his college degree or his PhD in psychology, although the latter was obtained from a non-accredited institution in Italy. Nevertheless, interesting information which serves to give a fuller portrait of the man. Someone who has the time should delve deeper into this most fascinating of all characters in the JFK saga and revise this article.98.183.30.108 (talk) 23:48, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

Great. I'll be looking forward to your edits. Joegoodfriend (talk) 22:42, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for your confidence in me! Unfortunately I'm not skilled in editing Wikipedia, nor do I have the time to do this subject justice. Perhaps some other interested person may accomplish this. Thanks for your interest and response to my post.98.183.30.108 (talk) 22:37, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

RfC about the inclusion of allegations made by William Gaudet

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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The article contains the following statement cited to Anthony Summers's book Not in Your Lifetime:

In 1978, William Gaudet, a 20-year CIA informant who had worked out of an office at the International Trade Mart in New Orleans, told investigator Anthony Summers that Ferrie "was with Oswald," although Gaudet did not state where or when, or whether he knew this directly or by hearsay. Gaudet also said, "Another vital person is Sergio Arcacha Smith. I know he knew Oswald and knows more about the Kennedy affair than he ever admitted."

Should the above statement be included in the article? 05:25, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose inclusion. First of all, one can cull from primary source information that Gaudet was a newspaper editor who was one of 150,000 Americans who voluntarily provided information to the CIA's Domestic Collection Division (the modern form is the National Resources Division) in the late 40s and early 50s due to his travels to Central and South America (i.e. he was not a spook involved in clandestine activity that had some secret knowledge of a conspiracy to assassinate JFK). Secondly, Gaudet's assertions that a) Ferrie was with Oswald in some (unidentified!) context and b) some other "vital" person had inside knowledge of Oswald and the assassination are WP:REDFLAGs that requires coverage in multiple reliable secondary sources. What we have is a conspiracy author relaying an anecdote designed to support the idea of a conspiracy. - Location (talk) 05:25, 8 April 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose. Too speculative to warrant inclusion here. Earl of Arundel (talk) 15:34, 8 April 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose. Too vague to warrant inclusion. Pincrete (talk) 14:50, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose. Nothing but a vague implication of...something, utilized as part of a framework of fringe speculation. This is not valuable encyclopedic content and even if it were, the sourcing doesn't even enter into the same universe as our editorial standards. Honestly, a WP:SNOWBALL call. Snow ^{let's rap} 16:19, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose Way to fringey. L3X1 (distant write) 14:07, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose. Summoned by bot. Vague and unsubstantiated. Coretheapple (talk) 14:07, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose. Speculative material should generally be avoided in an encyclopedia. An exception would be when it is an inference to the best explanation or in a situation when there is great uncertainly and the reader is looking for a few of the best explanations. And In the case of Kennedy’s death, there is so much conspiracy material that has been published, you couldn’t fit it an article even if you wanted to.Dean Esmay (talk)
• Oppose as too vague. –Davey2010^Talk 08:10, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

RfC about the inclusion of allegations made by Victor Marchetti

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Consensus not to include as written, that much is clear. Marchetti's reliability is debatable, "connected to" in the first sentence is vague, the "observed consternation" sentence is outright ridiculous, and the third sentence is weakened by being double hearsay. There might be a way to put in a more specific claim of Ferrie working for the CIA if some of the additional sources that came up in the discussion (Roberts, Garrison, ...) were used instead or as well, but that didn't get enough discussion to reach positive consensus, and clearly the current way of phrasing isn't acceptable. --GRuban (talk) 16:04, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

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The article contains the following statement cited to Anthony Summers' book Not in Your Lifetime:

The former Executive Assistant to the Deputy Director of the CIA, Victor Marchetti, has claimed that David Ferrie was connected to the CIA. Marchetti told author Anthony Summers that "...he observed consternation on the part of then CIA Director Richard Helms and other senior officials when Ferrie's name was first publicly linked with the assassination in 1967." Marchetti said that he asked a CIA colleague about this who told him that "Ferrie had been a contract agent to the Agency in the early sixties and had been involved in some of the Cuban activities."

Should the above statement be included in the article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Location (talk • contribs) 00:18, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose inclusion. This Rfc is almost identical to the one above. Victor Marchetti has counted on his former employment with the CIA to bolster all sorts of outlandish claims (e.g. he said there was a CIA memo confirming the names of three JFK assassins, including Watergate burglar E. Howard Hunt; he said Lee Harvey Oswald was in a CIA-connected naval intelligence program; he said he heard talk within the CIA of a UFO crash and recovery of alien pilots; etc.). In this case, Marchetti claimed that David Ferrie was "connected to the CIA" (i.e. read "David Ferrie was involved in a CIA-backed plot to assassinate JFK") based upon what he was told by a colleague and the "consternation" he saw on the CIA Director's face. Again, this is a form of walled-garden in that we have a conspiracy author relaying an anecdote from a sympathetic interviewee in order to spin the idea of a conspiracy. No reliable secondary sources discuss Marchetti's WP:REDFLAG claims about Ferrie. -Location (talk) 04:17, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
• Support inclusion. I don't understand the basis for exclusion. Victor Marchetti's CIA and the Cult of Intelligence and the things he claims to have seen and heard are cited in other articles. He's quoted in the first sentence of Limited_hangout. As for no other reliable source suggesting that Ferrie was a contract agent for the CIA, do I need to make a list? I thought it was common knowledge. Ferrie told Jim Garrison he was working for the CIA.[1] Hunter Leake, CIA officer second in command in New Orleans in the 60s has said (from the book Legacy of Secrecy) that "Ferrie performed a series of tasks for the CIA: supplying weapons and munitions to the Anti-Castro guerillas fighters in Cuba, training Cuban units for the 1961 Bay of Pigs invasion; conducting propaganda sessions among refugee units". Joegoodfriend (talk) 05:19, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

Joe, you've just provided two more examples of conspiracy sources (i.e. Joan Mellen and Legacy of Secrecy) regurgitating conspiracy sources (i.e. Jim Garrison and Michael Kurtz) who claimed they were told certain things from dead men who couldn't challenge their claims (i.e. David Ferrie and Hunter Leake). BTW, I believe Kurtz waited until his 2006 book to reveal the bombshells he attributed to a 1981 interview of Leake. He didn't make these claims or mention Leake in his 1993 book nor did he mention any of this to the AARB in 1995. Even those who believe in a conspiracy are skeptical of Kurtz's claims.[2][3] -Location (talk) 22:03, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

This sort of analysis doesn't wash with me, although I'm aware that it works with many Wikipedia editors. First take it as granted that any source virtually disqualifies himself or herself merely be suggesting that Oswald may not have acted alone. Then declare the source is unreliable because they didn't mention their evidence earlier, or because someone who believes Oswald acted alone has criticized that source. Michael Kurtz is a respected historian. Look, we have an historical record that includes two important CIA officials stating that Ferrie worked for the CIA, corraborated by several people who knew or claim to have known Ferrie personally. This section of the article needs a re-write, but there's not much point in having an article on someone if we're going to scrub the article of everything that makes the subject notable in the first place. Joegoodfriend (talk) 23:24, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

• Support inclusion. In the HSCA investigation volumes, number X p. 132n, there is testimony from Guy Banister's secretary Delphine Roberts that Ferrie was one of Banister's agents in New Orleans. Ms. Roberts specifically says that "I believed his work was somehow connected with the CIA rather than the FBI." Banister's work for the FBI and for the main anti-Castro groups in New Orleans after the failure of the Bay of Pigs invasion, out of his office at 544 Camp Street, is well documented all over the main Kennedy assassination literature. warshy ^(¥¥) 22:13, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose per Location. This isn't evidence, it's hearsay and dubious observations from an unreliable source. Gamaliel (talk) 22:17, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

How is the source known to be unreliable? Joegoodfriend (talk) 23:35, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose Marchetti has as much credibility as a hamster on LSD. No way. Coretheapple (talk) 23:23, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose. Victor Marchetti's word is not enough. We need additional lines of evidence, and further sources to establish notability of this claim. It fails for WP:UNDUE, and for not being verified. Harizotoh9 (talk) 03:51, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
• Support - as long as the information is cited with inline text attribution to a RS, it should be included. WP, free access to the sum of all human knowledge. ^{Atsme📞📧} 11:58, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
• Support inclusion, if warshy's witness (Ms. Roberts) corroborates, and given that this is attributed, I cannot see valid reasons for exclusion. Pincrete (talk) 19:51, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

@Pincrete: Would you see a valid reason for exclusion if other information refutes Delphine Roberts' claims or questions the reliability of her testimony? -Location (talk) 21:15, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

Firstly that's a hypothetical question, secondly I think that this topic area necessarily involves a higher degree of uncertainty than most biog narratives. So long as text is attributed and carefully phrased, I would lean toward inclusion - even of refuted content - along with the refutation. Pincrete (talk) 21:25, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

@Pincrete: Understood. If you're !vote is based on what warshy has claimed about Roberts, then I hope you will reconsider. The quote attributed to Delphine Roberts does not appear in Volume X of the HSCA appendices as warshy has implied, but rather in Anthony Summers' book Not in Your Lifetime. Summers obtained that statement in a 1978 paid interview of Roberts, not from material he extracted from HSCA documents. (Roberts never made the I-thought-Ferrie-was-in-the-CIA claim to the HSCA, but they did question her reliability about other claims on page 129 of Volume X.) According to Gerald Posner, Roberts said "I didn't tell him [i.e. Summers] all the truth" and that she only did the interview for the money. Summers claims it is common practice to pay interviewees and that Roberts stood by her story in a later interview. So who should believe? I don't know, but it's a shitstorm of hearsay centering around WP:REDFLAG claims. And if the best we have is hearsay from one person interviewed by Summers echoing hearsay from another person interviewed by Summers, then that seems a pretty valid reason for exclusion to me. -Location (talk) 02:24, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

Let us put here for everyone to see and judge Note 5 on page 279 of Summers' book, where he explains the whole exchange with Posner: [4] Note that he says that in a new interview in 1993, after Posner's allegations, Delphine Roberts stood by her story one final time. warshy ^(¥¥) 22:52, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose Re Marchetti's credibility: Marchetti's book on the CIA has problems, but it is supported in many aspects by many sources and is an acceptable source for an article, though not to be swallowed whole. Marchetti's claims about the Kennedy assassination are not in this book; these came later. As Bugliosi says in the endnotes to Reclaiming History (p. 810), it is a serious obstacle to Marchetti's credibility that he didn't mention any of these things in the book. The article can't repeat Marchetti's claims without qualification. As for the 'limited hangout' article, Marchetti's use of the phrase is presented only as an example of the phrase's use; Marchetti's false claim that the CIA was going to make Hunt take the blame for the JFK assassination is rightfully excluded. Rgr09 (talk) 00:39, 15 September 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose Marchetti sounds like a fibber and Not in your lifetime sounds like WP:FRINGE. I wouldn't include it. Chris Troutman (talk) 18:47, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose: Marchetti is not credible, few RS give him any "air time" for good reason; "connected to the CIA" is vague and effectively meaningless; and whether someone thought someone showed consternation is completely meaningless. This stuff fails WP:NOT#INDISCRIMINATE, and looks to also fail WP:NOR (in trying to "steer" the reader into drawing unsourced conclusions from hand-waving like "connected to the CIA"). Part of WP's job is to debunk WP:FRINGE conspiracy theories, not speed them along with a helping hand. The OR problem is actually worse than I thought at first; the strong desire of some editors to "stack up" various forms of hand-waving and vagueness, e.g. a quote from someone else that "I believed his work was somehow connected with the CIA rather than the FBI", and other similar material is patent WP:SYNTH; it's Wikipedians trying to act as tabloid "investigative" journalists and put together a salacious story from random quotoids that don't have any real evidence we can point to. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  09:03, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

"Marchetti is not credible" According to whom?

""connected to the CIA" is vague and effectively meaningless" Not really, given that the context of the text is that Marchetti was told by another agent that Ferrie worked for the CIA. Did you only read the first sentence?

"This stuff fails WP:NOT#INDISCRIMINATE" Not at all. Why is David Ferrie notable? Because of unproven allegations that he was connected to Lee Harvey Oswald, Cuban counter-revolutionaries, and US Intelligence. The sources of those allegations are not "an indiscriminate collection of information".

"and looks to also fail WP:NOR (in trying to "steer" the reader into drawing unsourced conclusions from hand-waving like "connected to the CIA")"" Again, it's like you didn't read the entire text; the "connection" is explained by the source: another agent stated that Ferrie was a contract agent. And how is WP:NOR involved here?

"Part of WP's job is to debunk WP:FRINGE conspiracy theories, not speed them along with a helping hand." I'll bite, how exactly is the theory that Ferrie worked for the CIA WP:FRINGE? It's been established that Ferrie was working with a former CIA agent and Cuban counter-revolutionaries, why is it so outlandish that he was also, like hundreds of Americans on the Gulf Coast in the 60s, being paid as part of the CIA's massive operations to overthrow Castro?

"it's Wikipedians trying to act as tabloid "investigative" journalists and put together a salacious story from random quotoids that don't have any real evidence we can point to" Have you read Jack the Ripper suspects? In numerous cases, there's zero evidence that the persons suggested could have been the Ripper. But they're included any way, because that's the subject of the article. Again, David Ferrie is notable for certain unproven allegations; if you refuse to include those allegations, there's no point to the article. Joegoodfriend (talk) 23:46, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

I do not necessarily agree that Ferrie is notable for unproven allegations. He is also notable for the way Garrison used him as a springboard to prosecute Clay Shaw. In fact, without the Shaw trial, I would question Ferrie's notability, period. Moreover, even if there is a consensus that "unproven allegations" against Ferrie are an important part of the article, that does not mean that ALL such unproven allegations should be in the article; many are (rightly) excluded already. The question is whether Marchetti's unproven allegations are worth including.

I still do not feel inclusion is warranted. Supposing, arguendo, that Ferrie, like Shaw, was a source for CIA's Domestic Contact Service, this is irrelevant to his involvement with the JFK assassination. And even if Ferrie were a six-cylinder Langley-trained hood, Garrison's charges, that Shaw conspired with Ferrie to kill JFK, were based on Perry Russo's claims, and the jurors ultimately found Russo impossible to believe, as do I, hood or no hood.

Finally, while Marchetti's claims are sourced to the 1998 edition of Summers, the 2013 edition appears to omit Marchetti entirely. Perhaps someone could check this. If so, maybe Marchetti can be omitted here as well? Rgr09 (talk) 12:04, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

"Supposing, arguendo, that Ferrie, like Shaw, was a source for CIA's Domestic Contact Service, this is irrelevant to his involvement with the JFK assassination." Disagree. Numerous reliable sources (see for example, The Last Investigation by HSCA investigator Gaeton Fonzi) link the CIA to the assassination. If Ferrie was be connected to both Oswald (and Fonzi concluded he was) and to the CIA, that would be significant. Joegoodfriend (talk) 01:22, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

Joegoodfriend, please see WP:BLUDGEON. Make your case in your own !vote, not by dumping a text wall, challenging virtually every word, after the comments of people who don't agree with you.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  15:30, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Removed link to Hopsicker website

The article previously included the statement that Joe Pesci's film portrayal of David Ferrie was 'critically acclaimed' and cited Daniel Hopsicker's Mad Cow Morning News website to support this. Hopsicker's website is emphatically not a reliable source, and Hopsicker is not any kind of film critic. I have removed the link. Rgr09 (talk) 00:53, 25 May 2020 (UTC)