Talk:Cung Le

footlock???

>5–0 Laimon M. Keita Submission (foot lock) 1998 Shidokan Cup August 29, 1998 2 N/A Chicago, Illinois 1998 U.S. Shidokan Cup semifinal

How on earth can you win by footlock in a sanda competition? I assume that's a mistake. There's no groundfighting in sanda, in fact submissions are completely not allowed, though throws are allowed. You also wear boxing gloves so footlocking someone would be very very hard. And would disqualify you... --93.41.113.131 (talk) 14:41, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

In fact, apparently Shidokan is a (mixed?) contact karate style, kind of like Kudo I assume. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.41.113.131 (talk) 14:52, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

Cung Le articles being trolled by the user Glock17gen4

He has major issues with accepting the fact that the UFC production made an error by using the communist flag next to Cung Le's picture at UFC139. I have provided significant proof in the UFC 139 discussion article that supports the fact that Cung Le absolutely should NOT be recognized with the communist flag of Vietnam. He has also already responded on twitter regarding the flag issue, yet Glock17gen4 refuses to accept and uses extremely ridiculous examples and comparing Cung Le to Osama Bin Laden. Glock17gen4 is also going around Wikipedia articles that mention Cung Le and continues to change Cung Le's flag to the current communist flag of Vietnam solely based on the fact that it was shown at UFC 139, even though Cung Le has already responded on twitter that he did not know about that.

http://twitter.com/#!/cungle185

CungLe185 Cung Le @ @ANDYONEr I did not know. I have it all over my shorts and shirt. That must of been production. It did say born in ? can't catch everything)

@Luv4theGame Look at what I wear. I rep more than a lot of people. 11 hours ago

@Luv4theGame I will ask them. 10 hours ago

CungLe185 Cung Le @ @ANDYONEr I will ask them! 10 hours ago

PinoyFilAmPride (talk) 20:12, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Cung Le is an American {USA}

First of all, just because he was born in Saigon, Vietnam that doesn't make him a current Vietnamese national. Nationalities and citizenships can change. Have you guys never followed any international competitions? Hakeem Olajuwon is a great example. He was originally born in Nigeria but he later obtained U.S. citizenship, therefore making him an American citizen of the USA and being eligible to play for Team USA. Being born in the USA is only one way of becoming a U.S. citizen. There are many people who have immigrated to the U.S. and applied for the citizenship and became citizens through that process.

Here is evidence that Cung Le is in fact and he himself identifies as an American.

http://a1.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/57/3a83a297fdeb7f1d02841979c9a0a4dc/l.jpg http://www.ufc.com/fighter/Cung-Le http://cungle.com/fight-profile/

"Specific accomplishments in amateur competition? Three time Bronze Medalist in the Wushu World Championships. I am the only American Wushu Kung Fu Athlete to have three World medals. I also was California Junior State Champion (158 lbs) and AAU Freestyle and Greco Roman National Champion (163 lbs). Also, California State High School Wrestling All-American. " — Preceding unsigned comment added by PinoyFilAmPride (talk • contribs) 18:50, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

"The action in a Sanshou match is constant, dynamic, and exciting, and it fit the Vietnamese-American wunderkind like a glove, giving his personality, athleticism, and spirit the perfect stage on which to shine." — Preceding unsigned comment added by PinoyFilAmPride (talk • contribs) 04:26, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

His fighter profile includes him as competing and COACHING team USA: 1999 Art of War Light Heavyweight Champion (China vs. USA) Honolulu, HI Cung Le vs. Nashun Gerile (Mongolian King) 3rd TKO Scissor Kick (CCTV)

1998 Shidokan Team USA Champion Chicago, IL 1st fight Cung Le vs. Ben Harris 2nd round KO spin hook kick to head 2nd fight Cung Le vs. Laimon M. Keita 5th round tap out (foot lock) 3rd fight Cung Le vs. Arne Soldwedel 7th round KO right hook to head (Got paid and turn pro)

"Having conquered the Sanshou world in every conceivable manner – as an international medalist, an undefeated ESPN2 Strike Force professional fighter, and wildly successful US Sanshou Team coach"

Notice how he is carrying two flags, one SOUTH VIETNAM which no longer exists but that only is representing his heritage, which is what many Vietnamese-American refugees who fled during the war also identify with. Cung Le is an American national, NO DOUBT ABOUT IT. DO Not mistake his ethnic background and heritage as compared to his current Nationality. He is not a current Vietnamese NATIONAL PinoyFilAmPride (talk) 20:21, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Untitled

Can we get a template up for his San Shou record too? NJMauthor (talk) 06:28, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

I concur, a section dedicated to his involvement in San Shou is very much needed. --DavidD4scnrt (talk) 09:48, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

What is his core martial arts? it seems alot of bandwagon claim that his core is TKD, but TKD does not throws and leg catch... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.13.131.168 (talk) 09:33, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Is Cung le currently teaching/using TKD? wrestling? or san shou? a section on how he's involved in san shou is very much needed... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.13.131.168 (talk) 10:20, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

I could've sworn that Chung Le is Vietnamese...?? I'll try to find that interview...--VEGETA_DTX (talk) 14:55, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Cung Le is of Vietnamese descent, that is his ethnic background and heritage. That does not mean he is a CURRENT VIETNAMESE National. Ethnicity and Nationality are two different things! PinoyFilAmPride (talk) 20:23, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Which is the correct flag??

I would just like to know what everyone or anyone has to say on this topic. I have seen many different flags (flag icons) used for Cung Le under different situations. An example of a time when a flag was used for Cung Le is in the page Strikeforce, the flag is next to his name under the current champions section. There has been many arguments on which flag is appropriate, the flags that have been used are;

The United States Flag,

The Vietnam Flag, and finally

The Flag of South Vietnam.

If anyone can provide any input on the subject, it would be much appreciated. 67.163.17.113 (talk) 20:11, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Personally i think the Vietnamese Flag is correct, being that Cung Le is from the country of Vietnam. However in his Sherdog fighter profile it states that his country is the USA [1]. The subject is still under debate, does anyone else have anything to say? 67.163.17.113 (talk) 18:19, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Incorrect, he does not associate himself with a communist flag. If you read his bio section, he and his family fled Saigon when the city fell to the communist. If you look at this video: [2] He has the Flag of South Vietnam on his trunk and people are waving the Flag of South Vietnam, not the communist flag. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.214.229.45 (talk) 03:54, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

The correct flag is the Flag of South Vietnam. He was born in Saigon, SOUTH VIETNAM, as it states in the article. South Vietnam only fell out of existence in 1975, and he was born in SAIGON, the capital of South Vietnam, in 1972. Therefore, he is South Vietnamese, and should be recognized by the South Vietnamese flag. Moreover, the article even states he was born in "Saigon," which is technically no longer in existence because its name has been changed to "Ho Chi Minh City." Had he been born after 1975, he could be listed with the communist flag and as born in HCMC, but even then, I feel that would be in extremely poor taste. In addition to it being technically and factually correct, I am pretty sure he would be extremely dissatisfied if he were associated with the current communist flag. Le only wears the South Vietnamese flag pattern on his trunks, and being a San Jose, Vietnamese American, I am extremely confident that he absolutely detests--with every bone in his body--the communist state now known as "Vietnam." If you know anything about the history of Vietnam or Vietnamese-American culture, this would be very evident. The flag icon has been changed, by me, to the South Vietnamese one. Onixz100 (talk) 14:21, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

I thought Wikipedia was about facts, not about taste. So indicating his birthplace as Saigon would be correct, because his birth was in the PAST and at that time it WAS Saigon. Nationality on the other hand is about current affairs, and as currently there is NO country called South Vietnam he cannot have South Vietnamese nationality. So as he probably did not apply for Vietnamese nationality, he only holds an US-American one. --Voiceless der Niedliche 18:23, 14 Aug 2010

Are you kidding me? He was born in SOUTH VIETNAM, therefore he is SOUTH VIETNAMESE, even if South Vietnam doesn't exist anymore. Want me to give you an example? Let's say tomorrow, South Korea was conquered by North Korea, and the new united Korea was called "Communist Korea." And, upon dissolution of South Korea, 10 million South Koreans fled South Korea to other parts of the world (diaspora). Now, would all these South Koreans, on their Wiki page, now be considered "Communist Koreans" and represented with the North Korean flag?

DO YOU UNDERSTAND NOW? He was born in South Vietnam; he has NO CONNECTION WITH THE SOCIALIST REPUBLIC OF VIETNAM. THEREFORE, HE SHOULD NOT BE REPRESENTED BY THE FLAG OF THE SOCIALIST REPUBLIC OF VIETNAM. FURTHER, THIS IS NOT A MATTER OF TASTE: EVEN IF WE WERE TO "PLAY BY THE FACTS," YOU WOULD STILL BE WRONG. DO YOU UNDERSTAND?

THERE ARE HUNDREDS OF OTHER BIOGRAPHIES ON WIKIPEDIA THAT HAVE THE FLAG OF THE USSR FOR RUSSIANS BORN BEFORE DECEMBER 25th 1991. SO, GENIUS, POINT OUT THE USSR ON THE MAP FOR ME. I am changing the flag back because YOU ARE WRONG. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Onixz100 (talk • contribs) 06:17, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

You should relax a bit and read again. Nobody said that he should be represented by the flag of the Socialist Republic of Vietnam, because - you would be right, if anyone would have asked to - that would be wrong. He has no official connection to that country, but he also has no official connection to South Vietnam anymore, because that country doesn't exist anymore. So if you absolutely want to put South Vietnam in the nationality template "(formerly) South Vietnamese" would be the correct way to do it. You should ask yourself what he's going to answer at the airport when he's asked what nationality he is (and what would be officially accepted). USSR flags for living people would also be wrong, because - you're right - the USSR doesn't exist anymore. Today they are Russian, Ukrainian, White Russian or what ever nationality they took after the downfall of the USSR. Look at Fedor Emelianenko's page, he was born in the USSR, but now he is Russian. --Voiceless der Niedliche 01:43, 22 Oct 2010 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.123.127.138 (talk)

It seem this Cung Le wiki is written by Brazillian Jiu-jitsu peopple whereby they will never mention he is using sanshou in kickboxing (k-1), or coaching sanshou team, or any other Martial art that is not Brazillian Jiu-jitsu is categorize as just kick-boxing —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.53.58.110 (talk) 15:02, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Does he currently hold a passport from the nation of Vietnam? No, he fled Saigon prior to it being annexed. Does he currently hold a passport from the nation of South Vietnam? No, because that country does NOT exist. Please review the Infobox Template: "nationality, this person's current nationality - holds a valid passport from this country". This seems to happen alot. People with agendas label Tito Ortiz a Mexican even though he was born in California, for example. Ridiculous, this is an encyclopedia not your personal blog. Pls take that crazy somewhere else.

--Hutcher (talk) 01:35, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, I changed his flag to the American one, because he's an American. Easy. BrendanFrye (talk) 02:54, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

You are correct, he is an American. He has been even quoted as identifying as one. He has competed and even coached Team USA as well. He only represents the flag of South Vietnam because that is his heritage, just like it is to many Vietnamese-Americans who were refugees and fled to the USA after the fall of Saigon. Many fighters, such as Mark Munoz and Cain Velasquez, also recognize their heritage. Also being born in the USA is only one way of becoming a U.S. citizen, there are other ways of becoming one such as immigrating and apply for U.S. citizen. Cung Le is not a Vietnamese national PinoyFilAmPride (talk) 20:15, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/386683_308847835811428_308847602478118_1157132_1118996196_n.jpg Thanks to this image and the help of Cyberpower678, the correct flag for Cung Le has offically been ruled this flag Glock17gen4 (talk) 04:15, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

The source provided was not legit. The source to provide that he was in fact American was more legit, as it is also show on his official UFC.com profile. So Glock's presumptions have been proven wrong again. It's been a pleasure Glock, but it's safe to say Cung Le is no Osama Bin Laden as you outrageously compared him too ;). PinoyFilAmPride (talk) 06:34, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Cool story bro! btw, dont you mean it is also SHOWN? It says he's from Saigon, Vietnam on his UFC profile:

http://www.ufc.com/fighter/Cung-Le — Preceding unsigned comment added by Glock17gen4 (talk • contribs) 06:51, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

SAIGON, Vietnam no longer exists. You seem to fail to accept all the other evidence provided and fail to read carefully at all the other information provided on his profile. "From" can refer to many things, including birthplace. You seem to have a hard time understanding the difference between someone's Nationality/Citizenship compared to ethnicity/heritage. PinoyFilAmPride (talk) 08:52, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

The most appropriate flag should be the American one because he has been fight as a naturalized American since he started. He has fled to the US at age 3. Also, since he does NOT hold South Vietnamese passport, therefore, that flag is ruled out. Yes, he was born in Saigon but WP:OPENPARA gives us a clue that his old nationality could only be assigned as South Vietnam IF (and only IF) he had been notable mainly for past events, which clearly is not the case here. -- Loukinho (talk) 20:32, 1 July 2012 (UTC).

The way that the UFC (I can't say for certain for other MMA organizations) represents their fighters is with the flag of their birth, not their nationality. If the country a UFC fighter was born in no longer exists, then the flag of the country that succeeded it is used. For example, there are a few UFC fighters who were born in the Russian SFSR. However, since the Russian SFSR no longer exists, the tri-color flag of the Russian Federation is used, instead of the flag of the USSR. Cung Le was born in South Vietnam, however, since that country no longer exists, the flag of present-day Vietnam is used (for the UFC). Again, flag icons (in the UFC) are done by country of birth, not by nationality, as evidenced by this. So while, Cung Le is an American, he was born in South Vietnam, which is now part of a united Vietnam, therefore the currenty Vietnamese flag is supposed to be used. So, for Cung Le's UFC-related articles, use the current flag of Vietnam. For all other Cung Le-related articles, use the South Vietnam and United States flag. Illegitimate Barrister (talk) 21:41, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

That's not entirely accurate. The way the UFC represents their fighters is in many different ways. The tale of the tape is simply an intro or profile that gives general information about place of birth and fighters measurements. Outside of that, take Cain Velasquez for example, although he was born in the U.S, the UFC goes full out and represents his Mexican heritage. Does that mean he's a Mexican national? No it doesn't. If South Vietnam no longer exists, then technically he is an American [USA] since even in his UFC profile it quotes him as being an American. It goes beyond than one simple place of birth, which he clearly does not represent the current Vietnam. PinoyFilAmPride (talk) 22:41, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

I think User:Illegitimate Barrister brought some relevant points to the discussion. UFC has indeed frequently represented their fighters by country of birth whether or not they are citizens of that country. I remember a few occasions though in which that was not accurate, though but that goes beyond the point. I was intrigued by this whole discussion and researching more about this issue of which flag should be used and I came up with some interesting guidelines. I guess we learn something new every day. Sorry for breaking the formatting but I think it is appropriate in this case as it seems to seal the discussion. Here is what I found out (with respective link):

Wikiproject MMA states that In the column Opponent, do not add flag icons before the name of the opponent. Per MOS:ICON, the consensus in Wikipedia is that flag icons should not be used to emphasize nationality without good reason. Flag icons for sportspeople should only be used in a sporting sense, that is, only when they are representing a national squad/team or for representative nationality in a competition, not legal nationality. There is no international sport governing body in MMA and MMA events are mainly handled by individual promotions. As such, MMA fighters do not represent their countries in a sporting sense, so flag icons do not serve an encyclopedic purpose. Flag icons should not be added only because they look good, because aesthetics are in the eye of the beholder: one reader's harmless decoration may be another reader's distraction (from WP:MMABOX).

The use of flags on the infobox is also discouraged: Do not add flag icons in the infobox. Flag icons should not be used to emphasize nationality and they are redundant with a written location. They are unnecessarily distracting and give undue prominence to one field among many. For more details, please read Wikipedia:Manual of Style (icons).

I hope this sheds some light to the subject. We should probably not be using them at all and in fact, I'm calling all of you out to help me remove them all! It really makes sense, since it doesn't really serve an encyclopedic purpose. The fighters are not representing a country afterall. -- Louk⟟nho^≟ 07:13, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

"Flag icons for sportspeople should only be used in a sporting sense, that is, only when they are representing a national squad/team or for representative nationality in a competition, not legal nationality." Going by that logic then the dispute should be settled and Cung Le should be represented by a USA flag. Per Cung Le's official UFC profile and proof that he's competed for Team USA:

- 1999 Art of War Light Heavyweight Champion (China vs. USA) Honolulu, HI,1999 ISKA Light Heavyweight Sanshou Champion San Jose, CA, 1998 ISKA Light Cruzer weight Champion San Jose, CA,1998 Shidokan Team USA Champion Chicago, IL (Tournament Champion)

- Three time Bronze Medalist in the Wushu World Championships. I am the only American Wushu Kung Fu Athlete to have three World medals. I also was California Junior State Champion (158 lbs) and AAU Freestyle and Greco Roman National Champion (163 lbs). Also, California State High School Wrestling All-American.

And like I've previously stated, UFC uses flags for different reasons including Marketing. Take one of the Promos for UFC 121 for example. Cain Velasquez vs Brock Lesnar promo also sparked controversy as it clearly showed Cain with a flag of Mexico, even though he's not a Mexican National nor has he ever REPRESENTED Mexico at any sporting event, regardless of MMA or not. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpyEoHHBKJk PinoyFilAmPride (talk) 20:07, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

The Flag of South Vietnam. FYI, this flag now is also officially recognized by many states in the United States as well as numerous countries around the world as the Vietnamese Heritage and Freedom Flag.Vietnamesefreedomflag (talk) 15:28, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

• Comment This is very clear, he was born in South Vietnam but all that does is make him "South Vietnamese born" place of birth does not equate to nationality (otherwise Australia would have a british prime minister); there is a source here that calls Le "South Vietnamese-born American" therefore unless someone can show with an equally reliable source he is a national of another country then we go with American. Any changes without such a source will be reverted in line with WP:BLP. Mtking ^(edits) 22:33, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Kickboxing Record

There are several entries in this section that look like they belong in the MMA record section. For example, there is a fight listed vs. Brian Ebersole and the event is simply listed as "Strikeforce". As far as I know, Strikeforce has always been an MMA, not a pure kickboxing, event. (75.50.98.182 (talk) 20:45, 7 July 2012 (UTC))

I changed the Championships and Accomplishments section to Kickboxing record since that's what it is. This information comes from Cung Le's own website about his Shidokan and San Shou record so I suggest we try cleaning up that section. The names of his opponents should atleast be put in. AncientObserver (talk) 15:26, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. Here is the page you mentioned, http://cungle.com/fightprofile.php. A cursory glance of that page shows us that the word "champion" is used in every single fight he has ever been in, it's obviously misused and should be stripped from that kickboxing section (except where corroborating sources are found). BrendanFrye (talk) 00:49, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

sorry, but i didn't want to start a new section. the junior (17-20) level of AAU wrestling is called "espoir", not espior. i included a link to fila, the international governing body for wrestling. type espoir in the search field in the upper right and you will get a million returns for espoir, and you can just go to google and type wrestling and espoir and you will get lots of competition results. it's spelled that way in all the aau tourneys in the us that i've seen as well... i have no idea if there is a way to check if he won those 2 AAU titles or not but at least the tournament division should be spelled correctly — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.98.204.251 (talk) 12:35, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Foto

Is there maybe a better foto of Mr. Le in the ring/cage? The one displayed has Mr. Shamrock in its focus, but as this is an article about Mr. Le it would be more useful to have one that has him in its focus. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.247.222.15 (talk) 02:28, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.130.39.189 (talk) 01:28, 6 July 2012 (UTC) 

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TKO or KO

In the first Scott Smith fight, most official sources, including Sherdog, have KO. An editor is suggesting by warring that this is changed, yet the weight of sources indicates it should stay as is. https://events-staging.mixedmartialarts.com/Strikeforce-Evolution:607B00D7-7553-4206-9C41-4E6B07C9C5A0

https://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Cung-Le-14883

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/311662-strikeforce-results-scott-smith-kos-cung-le-melendez-outlasts-thomson

https://rankingmma.com/cung-le/

NEDOCHAN (talk) 16:58, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

As the admin stated, the only sources that could be considered "official" in this matter are the promotion (Strikeforce) or the California State Athletic Commission. If you can find something from either of them that definitively declares it a full-on KO, rather than a TKO, then you win. But the fact that I have a source from a legitimate MMA journalistic website that backs up my claim, and the fact that 9 out of 10 MMA fans watching the event could tell you it's clearly a TKO, lends weight to it being labeled a TKO rather than a pure KO. Why exactly are you so adamant regarding this? Should I gift you a month of UFC FightPass so you can watch the fight and see for yourself? I've watched thousands of MMA fights over the last year as part of a research project, I wouldn't change a fight result on wikipedia unless I was sure that it was listed incorrectly.

Maybe you just aren't familiar with the way MMA results are reported. Many places will report a fight finish as KO/TKO in order to simplify things, because while there are finishes where a fighter is clearly knocked unconscious, and fights where the fighter is clearly still awake and the ref decided to stop the fight because of an accumulation of damage or the imminent threat in the ref's eyes of upcoming KO, there is a big enough grey area where it's unclear if a fighter lost consciousness for just a moment or two, rather than the 5+ seconds usually seen in a full-on KO. So rather than haggle over the difference, many sites that list fight results (like tapology) will just use KO/TKO to head off any disputes. But since the precedent on Wikipedia is to aim for as much accuracy as possible, all fights results ending by strikes are listed as either a KO or a TKO. In the specific instance of this fight, the eyeball test would lead most spectators to conclude TKO rather than KO. This, combined with the source I have linked below, should be enough to merit the change from KO to TKO. If you need an example of what a KO looks like, look no further than the Lawal vs Whitehead fight earlier on that same card. It's listed on wikipedia as a KO, and the footage clearly supports that. Justinw303 (talk) 17:16, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

"Smith's third-round TKO victory was a sensational performance ..." - MMAFighting.com

UFCStats.com (UFC now owns the promotion that produced the fight in question)

Justinw303 (talk) 20:47, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

Read WP:STATUSQUO. I have given the official source.NEDOCHAN (talk) 18:25, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

And which source is that? You haven't provided anything from the California State Athletic Commission, nor from Strikeforce. UFC, which now owns Strikeforce and its properties, calls the finish a "KO/TKO", following the format I mentioned earlier of labeling all TKOs and KOs as "KO/TKO" to avoid discussion of the specifics. And actually, if you look at the page I'm referring to (http://ufcstats.com/fighter-details/d4f364dd076bb0e2), you'll see a later fight in his career also labeled "KO/TKO" but with an extra, green "*KO" tag that clearly signifies that finish as being a full knockout, rather than a TKO. This should be case closed, since the UFC seems to be the most offical source available. Justinw303 (talk) 18:49, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

Read STATUSQUO.NEDOCHAN (talk) 19:38, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

What makes your single source more accurate than the multiple sources above? Or official?NEDOCHAN (talk) 19:39, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

I have a source backed by the UFC, the owner of this promotion. And since the most accurate version of history is what you can SEE, and thanks to the video available we can SEE that this particular KO is a TKO. That, combined with multiple sources valid sources labeling it a TKO, are more than what’s needed for Wiki to recognize this as a TKO. Justinw303 (talk) 19:51, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

Please stop edit warring. You're already over WP:3RR right now, which is blockable. I've notified the WikiProjects in an attempt to get more eyes on this discussion. For now leave the article as it is. You might also want to get a third opinion if you need more input. — Czello 19:58, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

You're not understanding this, it seems. The sources you quote are not official. What is your evidence that they accurately quoted the official results? What makes your blithe assurance that they state the "official result" verbatim any less of a personal opinion than Justinw303's?

That being said, WP:STATUSQUO is an essay, and ironically enough, is also one without any official status. Since UFC is the owner of Strikeforce's history and content, at this point, I'd think their sites are as official as we're likely to get. Ravenswing 22:36, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

Ravenswing - the source that is 'backed by the UFC' (which I would say is therefore not independent) does NOT state that the fight ended by TKO. It backs up the existing version, too.NEDOCHAN (talk) 10:52, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

Ravenswing - the source that is 'backed by the UFC' (which I would say is therefore not independent) does NOT state that the fight ended by TKO. It backs up the existing version, too. NEDOCHAN (talk) 10:53, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

It should also be pointed out that Justinw303 did not use any sources when making the edit in the first place. They changed sourced info in favour of that which was not sourced. When reverted, retroactively they sought a source to corroborate their OR. One such source doesn't state the result in the correct format, the other does but it says both KO and TKO.

It is also my understanding that we seek independent sources and this one isn't. And it doesn't contradict what was there before, either. (http://ufcstats.com/fighter-details/d4f364dd076bb0e2 NEDOCHAN (talk) 11:00, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

For pity's sake: can you make up your mind what you're arguing? First you're claiming that the other sources aren't "accurate" or "official." Now you're arguing that the official source isn't "independent." Now obviously Justinw303's antics at the start of this dispute were out of line and unacceptable, but it's long since time for you to drop that stick, especially given that ever since, it's your antics that are unacceptable.

The object of this exercise is not for you to "win" and get your way. It's for the most accurate version of events to be represented in this article, and the only possible way to do that is through an official source. The official result is reflected in the UFC link, and I'm changing the table to suit that. I caution you strongly to cease edit warring over this. Ravenswing 11:15, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

I am grateful for the admin assistance but I do think it's worth pointing out that my initial concern was not about reliability of sources at all. It was about Justinw303 aggressive insistence that OR was the correct way to edit Wiki.

watch the fight. it was clearly not a KO. Sherdog isn’t more reliable than watching something with your own eyes.

WATCH THE FIGHT YOURSELF BEFORE YOU DISPUTE MY CHANGES. Fightpass.com, and it might even be on Youtube. CLEARLY a TKO

It was only after my attempt to address on their TP and then ANI that they even started trying to source the information. Which, let's all remember, was already sourced to the source that is present in every MMA fighter infobox and which we have used for a long time. The issue was that they were changing sourced info. And, finally, the best source they have come up with is a) not independent and b) doesn't contradict what was there before and c) wasn't even put as a citation in their edits!.NEDOCHAN (talk) 11:26, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

I am satisfied with the resolution, which accurately reflects the source given. Although I would caution against using UFC as a source as it is by definition not an independent reliable source. NEDOCHAN (talk) 11:32, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

So the UFC, owner of this defunct promotion and the biggest MMA organization the world has ever seen, is not a "reliable" source for you, and neither is my other source, MMAFighting.com, a prominent MMA journalistic site that has been around since 2001. But your sources are. Interesting how that works. Justinw303 (talk) 14:38, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

You seem deeply confused over what sources can be used to what ends. The dispute between you and Justinw303 concerns the official outcome of the fight. The ONLY valid records of that come from the promotion and the state athletic commission -- not Sherdog, not MMAFighting, not a ringside reporter for the local paper, no one and nowhere. We have a valid record from the promotion. Done deal. Further discussion unnecessary. Ravenswing 20:06, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

I agree with the last sentence only. The rest of your opinion is a very effective admin argument against the principle of independent reliable sources. There are myriad reasons why using a privately owned promotion's website as the best encyclopedic source is a bad idea. I'll leave it at that.NEDOCHAN (talk) 23:26, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

It's not an independent reliable source. Because it's not independent. And mmafighting.com is not nearly as established, scrutinised and discussed as Sherdog, which is the primary MMA record since MMA began and is the source used in infoboxes.NEDOCHAN (talk) 14:50, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

And yet, absolutely nothing about Sherdog is "official". They hold no weight over any other website when it comes to declaring the outcome of a fight. You just like them more. Justinw303 (talk) 15:31, 10 January 2023 (UTC)