Talk:White Latin Americans

Native American

"Native American" is an American term for its indigenous peoples. Most, if not all Latin American states call these people "Indigenous". Does it make sense for this article to use "Native American" continuously? Eladynnus (talk) 04:10, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

It is wide, Native American also means those who have been born in the USA. It can be any race. Bladesmulti (talk) 04:24, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Judging by the sources, it would seem that 'Native American' is used as a substitute for 'Indigenous American'. That being the case, the meaning should be qualified in the article by applying the correct nomenclature. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 06:02, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Significance

What criteria do we want to use for "significant" population size, ie for inclusion in the "Regions with significant populations" box? Recently we've seen countries with less than half a million "white" people added - is this reasonable? Should we have a minimum cutoff (eg 1 million people), or perhaps should we base it on %age of the population? Or perhaps remove the "significant" from the pop box title altogether? Any thoughts? Tobus (talk) 06:10, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

There should be no cut-off. Who are we to judge what is significant or not? Half a million is not significant? I think it is in the readers best interest to include these countries as well. I don't see the need to exclude merely "four" countries because they do not meet a personal standard. I also do not see it improving the article in any way by its withholding. Savvyjack23 (talk) 16:29, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

So let's just get rid of the word "significant" then? Tobus (talk) 10:07, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Therefore you're proposing "Regions with populations" as an alternative.(?) Significant may not have any absolute numeric value, but is certainly indicative of there being enough members of a particular minority group for them to have cultural community enclave (or enclaves), religious, and other ties as opposed to being fully assimilated into a broader culture.

More to the point, the 4 countries you wanted to eliminate only have what, by your criterion, would only constitute insignificant populations in total, i.e., total populations of < 10 million. In relation to the ratio in proportion to the total population, numbers of less than a million certainly qualify as being significant. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 03:14, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Not literally, I'd suggest "Population by Country" or something. "Significant" implies more than ordinary, or standout - I mean I sang "Hound Dog" at Karaoke last night, does that mean I qualify to be listed under "Significant Contributions to Rock'n'Roll"? If the consensus is for a free-for-all inclusion of any Latin American country then lets change the title to reflect that.

I already floated the idea a %age of total population minimum - it'd more indicative of "significant" relative to the country's total populations than a flat minimum number. Having said that, of the 4 countries I removed using a flat 1M minimum, Ecuador is only 6% "white", Haiti <5%, Honduras 1% and Panama 10%... compare that to nearly 50% in Brazil and over 90% in Argentina, there really is a significant difference here.

The question really is what serves the page best - do we want a long list of every Latin American country up front, or do we want a short list of the major countries with the rest detailed down below in their relevant sections? Personally I prefer the former, it's much cleaner and caters to the majority of interest while still providing the less popular info for those who want it. I'd put about 5-6 countries in the list (looking at it, I'd probably make it 5Mil and cut it after Cuba), but this isn't my page, so what do other's think? Every country up the top or just the biggest/most significant ones?

Tobus (talk) 08:44, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

While I appreciate your concern for crowding the content, this would still require WP:OR in order to define 'significant'. Why try to implement some absolutist system for qualification when alphabetical order is fine? --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:51, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

"Significance" is a little but subjective but we can't seriously be accused of misusing it if we include over 95% of the global population - and that percentage is covered by the first 7 countries listed. OTOH we are certainly using a strange definition of it by saying Haiti is "significant" - it represents less than half a percent of the global population and less than 1/20th of it's own internal population. I'm sure it's "significant" to somebody somewhere, but we're not pandering to them, we're writing an encyclopedia and in an encyclopedic context, it's not significant.

Outside the top 95%, I think you could also make a case for keeping Uruguay, Costa Rica and Puerto Rico which despite their low %age on a global scale, all have significant internal populations of over 50%. I can't see much of a case for claiming "significance" for the rest - they each represent less than 2% of the global population and under 20% of their own internal population. If we removed them we would still be covering 209mil of the 219mil global population - a "significant" proportion no?

Tobus (talk) 06:55, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

We're hardly talking about an endless list. Per Savvyjack23, there's no justification for proscribing it. I fail to understand why you're obsessing over it. Please understand that you have two editors objecting to proscribing it as it isn't up to us to define 'significant'. There's no benefit or need to change it in order to enhance the content. End of discussion. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 21:48, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

"Significant" is already defined, all we need to do is apply it. Can you make a case for why (eg) Haiti should be considered a region with a significant population of White Latin Americans? If not, let's remove it. Tobus (talk) 22:40, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

Can you make a case for why half a million in a population of ten million (5%) isn't 'significant'? How does this compare with the overall percentage in the United States: 27 million out of a population of 320 million (8.4%). I repeat: any rendering of 'significant' in this context without reliable sources is original research. Please drop the stick. I don't want to waste my time on this any longer. You've failed to explain why this is a 'significant' issue as there's no reason why we need to proscribe the list on the grounds of having an excessively long list. If you can provide a logical reason as to why you're making such a big deal of it, I'm prepared to WP:LISTEN again. If not, it isn't that WP:ITSIMPORTANT as no one other than Savvyjack23 has even engaged in the discussion. In all seriousness, I'm not going to engage in any further discussion unless you can provide a good reason for exclusion. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:12, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

Firstly, you are switching the burden of proof (see WP:PROVEIT) - if we put Haiti in a box called "Regions with significant populations" then we are saying that Haiti *is* a region with a significant population and need to be able to justify that, not the other way around.

Secondly, I've already made my case, you just chose to ignore it: "Significant" here is in a global context (the page covers many countries, not just one!). Haiti's 0.5m represents less than one quarter of one percent of the global white Latin American population (0.495 of 219 is 0.226%). This is not "significant" as defined in any English language dictionary I've ever seen.

Thirdly, the US population of 27 million represents ~12% of the global population making it the 3rd most significant country in the world. If we removed the US we'd be covering less than 90% of the world population. (Compare that to Haiti where we'd still be covering 99.75% of the global population if we removed it!)

Fourthly, your comments and links about original research, dropping the stick, this not being important/significant etc. apply equally to yourself - why are *you* making such a big deal of this? If you don't want to "waste your time" on this unimportant issue then don't - let me clean up the list so it matches the description and stop insisting on the inclusion of countries with extremely small populations in a pop box labeled "significant populations".

Fifthly, I note that 2 of the 4 countries I originally raised this discussion about have already been removed by another editor and not restored... there does seem to be support from other editors to restrict the list, even if they're not participating in this discussion.

And finally, if we make sure that we're covering at least 95% of the global population then there's no way we can have missed any of the major contributors. Even if we decided to cover 99% of the world population Haiti and Ecuador still wouldn't make the list. There's no logical reason to include them, only personal and emotional ones.

Tobus (talk) 23:53, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

You've misunderstood WP:PROVEIT. As the contributor who wishes to redact (i.e., remove) content, the onus is on you to provide evidence through reliable sources to demonstrate that 'significant' is qualified by some sort of proscribed formula in the field of demographics. Please stop with your WP:OR interpretation based on your own reading of the dictionary meaning of 'significant'. Once you can provide such sources, you're welcome to provide them here and redact the list accordingly. Until you have a genuine case, please desist from this WP:BATTLEGROUND attitude in trying to escalate the issue. You've gone from querying a point to being disruptive. Without sourced demographic proscriptions, I'm not engaging again. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 21:11, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

I quote: "The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material" (bolding in original)... it is you who has misunderstood it. If you are insisting that Haiti is a region with a significant white Latin American then WP:PROVEIT. Tobus (talk) 22:49, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Which is you, per bold → revert → discuss. You're responsible for the WP:BOLD edit using a personal predilection unsupported by secondary sources for the definition of 'significant' number in any glossary of terminology in the field of demographics. The onus lies with you to demonstrate that this isn't simply a WP:POV and WP:OR interpretation of 'significant'. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 21:06, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Firstly, it's not me - I removed questionable content and you are arguing for the restored material. So as per WP:PROVEIT the onus is on you, "the editor who adds or restores material" to justify why Haiti should be included in this list. As per WP:BRP I've left the page with my edit reverted while we discuss the issues, but contrary to what you are saying, there's nothing in WP:BRD that excuses either of us from providing evidence during that discussion. So please, explain why you think Haiti is significant in this context.

Secondly, I've already made my case twice, you are just not listening. The definition of "significant" I am using is the dictionary definition (not my "personal predilection" as you seem to think). While this is necessarily contextual, in this pop box the context is global since we are discussing many countries. Haiti has a white population less than 0.25% (one quarter of one percent) of the global population, and hence, by any standard definition of the term, Haiti's while population is not significant.

In the interests of resolving this issue, can you please make your own case, using facts and logic, of why Haiti should be included in this list.

Tobus (talk) 00:17, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

I can see the rationale in removing Haiti by the percentage of the population of Haiti (and because that percentage is white and mulatto), but the brunt of your argument from the inception has been using < 1 million as a cut-off point would have cut off 4 countries. When the total population of a nation-state is only 10 or 15 million, in terms of the overall population a group of just under 1 million (while a minority) is still a significant percentage. Using Ecuador as the example, with a population of 14.5 million (although that's the 2010 stats), a population of 0.95 million constitutes 6.1%. I have seen no WP:RS that tell me that it isn't a significant proportion of the population, therefore I understand it to be significant enough to warrant inclusion, particularly as there is no breakdown of numbers of indigenous and other ethnic groups in what is a multicultural nation-state.

I don't see this as being worth taking to dispute resolution. No one else seems to be interested in getting involved, so I'm just going to ping a couple of uninvolved, neutral editors for third party input. I'm happy to abide by decisions made by consensus, or by overriding policy.

Sorry to ask for your time, but could Cullen328, Ymblanter, or Nick-D please help out here? --Iryna Harpy (talk) 03:10, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

I recommend eliminating the word "significant" which seems to add nothing to the article except generating massive talk page discussion to no good end, and list the statistics for every Latin American country, assuming that those reliable statistics are available. It seems that most Latin American countries are listed currently. Why not all? If it is necessary to limit the list for some reason that I do not understand, then make the cutoff one million people. But please, please stop these lengthy debates where people repeat the same point over and over again. By the way, I disagree with listing the Haiti statistics in the current form, which clearly are not "white". Bottom line - please stop the bickering. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 06:08, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

In my first attempt, I did not even understand what is being discussed. I will try again in the afternoon.--Ymblanter (talk) 06:47, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

United States

This article states it is about people of Latin America countries. But the article has a section of several paragraphs on the United States. Since the US is not considered a Latin American country, should this section be deleted? Why or why not? Hmains (talk) 17:07, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

To be honest, considering that the article WP:TITLE is "White Latin American", it certainly reads as being WP:OFFTOPIC. Nevertheless, as a result of the US census methodology for determining ethnicity and self-identification, there is a distinct stratification of ethnic identification amongst the large Latin American presence in the US. Personally, if it's deemed as being encyclopaedic, I see this as belonging to a related spin-off article rather than this article as it conflates the issues surrounding relevant content for this article. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 02:02, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

There is a long standing article on the US subject Hispanic and Latino Americans. Hmains (talk) 02:18, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

Cheers, Hmains. Hispanic and Latin America isn't really my field but, rather, just an area I'm interested in. In all honesty, I've only added a number of articles in the field due to a concern that there aren't enough regulars maintaining this area in order to cite-check and sort through RS as being an unfortunately neglected area of Wikipedia. I've now added the above-mentioned article to my watchlist.

Given the title and content of that article, I'm in agreement with you that the content on the US is off-topic for this article. This article is detailed and complex enough without needing to reference the presence of white Hispanic and Latin American diasporic communities living in the USA, therefore I fully support the removal of content relevant to the US. At best, if the "Hispanic and Latino Americans" article isn't wikilinked within the body of the article, it could be added to the "See also" subheader. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 06:27, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

Costa Ricans

The picture given isn't of Costa Rican girls, it's of American girls in ethnic costumes. It's very misleading to claim they are something they aren't. Here is a link to all the pictures: http://www.ics.uci.edu/~eppstein/pix/iday/index.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.87.73.92 (talk) 22:01, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

 Fixed I've removed the photo, plus have changed the description on the WikiCommons page, where the photo is hosted, to reflect that it's children in California dressed up in Costa Rican folk costumes for International Day in 2003. As such, it fails WP:PERTINENCE for use in this article. Thank you for drawing my attention to the misrepresentation. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:34, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

References in Argentina and Costa Rica

This report is a shame, but it is necessary to reverse the edition of the user Bleckter (which is a Mexican ip), what happens is that our "great researcher" Bleckter, confused genetic data with race, and this article talks about the race, specifically the white race in Latin America, and the reference to Argentina said that 44% of them have genes pure Europeans, but the Argentine whites are more than 80%, the same case in Costa Rica. Thanks --190.148.92.240 (talk) 21:18, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

• I come to label that the user Blecker after to accusing me and put his hands on data of Argentina and Costa Rica, he did not follow editing, this could signify a WP: SPA.--190.148.92.240 (talk) 21:27, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

in the same ref that is used to put "44% white" says that 44% are pure european, saying also that this is not show in the appearence of the people, althougt this study is not really believable because they say that 44% is pure and 56% is somewhat mix or pure amerindian, excluding, the smalls but existing and gorwing, asian and black population, so i find this as serious as the CIA study that says that 97% of the population is white — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chueco23456 (talk • contribs) 18:01, 6 March 2016 (UTC)

if you have one indian great grand parent and seven whites, your phenotype is caucasic not mix race,understand now bleckter? this user does no more than vandalism Chueco23456 (talk) 23:35, 6 March 2016 (UTC)

 Why not make a page on Wikipedia that only talk about the Hispanic whites in the Americas 

Please make a page on Wikipedia that only speak of Hispanic whites in the Hispanic countries of the Americas, in addition to adding Hispanic whites in the United States Derekitou (talk) 03:31, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Not sure what you are asking, could you expand? Personally I'm not even sure this article makes sense and may be imposing a classification that is not used in many of the countries being discussed. --Erp (talk) 23:08, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

Look, I do not understand you either. I say make an article only white people of Hispanic American countries --Derekitou (talk) 03:23, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

if there European diaspora, it's possible Hispanic whites in the Americas (Mexico, Central america except Belize, South American except Brazil, Guayana and Surinam, Only Puerto Rico, Cuba and Dominican Republic in the Caribbean).--Bernfield (talk) 18:56, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

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Sources

All the sources are correct. Please don't remove without reason. --Bleckter (talk) 23:21, 6 March 2016 (UTC)

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All 26 links work. Some combining of references with duplicate URLs (esp. #3, 8 and #14, 15) possible. Dhtwiki (talk) 01:02, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

Latinobarómetro 2016

The information regarding different ethnicities (White, Mestizo) according to the "2016 Latinobarómetro Report" is fake, if you see the link it's just a slideshare, because Latinobarómetro didn't ask for this in 2016.

Specifically, the numbers for Chile and Brazil are altered.

It should be changed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.214.91.48 (talk) 02:34, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

White chileans

The Universidad de Chile study is not accessible, so I'm going to delete the sentence quoting it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Leedshint (talk • contribs) 17:36, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

White mexicans

Have anyone checked the source about white mexicans? The source says "between one-tenth and one-fifth of the total" and the total population of the country is 120 Million. So it should NOT be 35 Million as the wikipedia article points out. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dsandovalm (talk • contribs) 19:04, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

That's true, I just changed it.--186.151.60.76 (talk) 23:35, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

Thank you both for your for your diligence. Someone must have tampered with the stats. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 19:59, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

Being White

Somebody keeps writing a paragraph titled Being White.

I keep erasing the Being White paragraph because is wrong. The idea that Latin Americans don't understand race or heritage is a concept created by racist people within the American government to create the concept that Latin Americans could be placed under the Hispanic race because they can't understand why they are white in the first place.

In Latin America people relate whiteness with European heritage. We are not a bunch of idiots who can't understand race. This is why the Being white paragraph should not be allowed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jcarbonelldiaz (talk • contribs) 19:22, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Actually, you keep erasing an entire section that has been in the article for some time, seems well sourced, and doesn't fit your description of it. Can you specify what part of it you have the most problem with? Dhtwiki (talk) 01:50, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

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Populations section

The first table is awfully wrong, using several times genetic composition studies as ethnic composition, which doesn't make any sense, so I'm going to delete it — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mistypinto (talk • contribs) 17:51, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

Also the file "Ethnic Compostition of the Americas" is extremely wrong and misleading. More than half of chileans are white/arab? Really? Whoever made this: have you ever been in Chile? The same happens with Costa Rica, Puerto Rico, Colombia, etc — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mistypinto (talk • contribs) 17:55, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

I've restored the table, which is longstanding and seems well referenced. I'd like to see consensus develop for its removal before it's taken down. Dhtwiki (talk) 17:22, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

Fake source Chileans

Please somebody erase the Isabel allende's quotes ...Allende confirmed himself that she dont even say a word about this famous but fake line (invented by peruvians)..."The chileans want to be racially argentines and culturally peruvians"

— Hay una frase tuya que circula mucho el redes: "El chileno tiene un complejo de hace mucho tiempo: racialmente quiere ser Argentino y culturalmente Peruano". ¿Es tanto así? ¡Esa frase no es mía! Hay varias frases que me atribuyen y son muy inteligentes, ojalá se me hubieran ocurrido a mí. Pero esa no es mía.

http://elcomercio.pe/luces/libros/isabel-allende-mario-vargas-llosa-encontro-mujer-formidable-436730— Preceding unsigned comment added by 181.160.228.141 (talk) 04:53, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

That's really not quite all that's going on, is it. You're also removing information on DNA research which, while it may need to be improved for grammatical reasons, is unrelated to Allende's misquote. Please explain what your issues (plural) are, as it is certainly not just a single issue you're contesting.

As an aside, please follow WP:TALKNEW. Your new section header and comment assume bad faith on behalf of those who created the content and have maintained it. Obviously, the fact that she was asked about the quote makes it clear that it is a common misquote, which is not the same as calling it 'fake'. I would still like to know, however, why you have eliminated the research percentages without addressing the blanking of this reliably sourced content. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 20:01, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

White Mexican, population and percentage

No one of the three sources for ensure the "47% of white mexicans" contains about ethnic groups of mexico, the three sources talk about only the racism in Mexico: 21 de marzo Día Internacional de la Eliminación de la Discriminación Racial Encuesta Nacional sobre Discriminación en México DOCUMENTO INFORMATIVO SOBRE DISCRIMINACIóN RACIAL EN MéxICO — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.151.61.164 (talk) 00:19, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

I think you must re-read these documents, and actualy pay attention to their context, as first they talk about how racism in Mexico manifests on Mexicans preffering and favoring people with European appearance and that has light skin, light hair etc. over people with non-European ones and then proceed to state that 47% of Mexicans identify with light skin. In the document's context (which is as you said yourself 'racism') the later statement means that 47% of Mexicans self-identified as being of European appearance.

You claim that "the documents do not explicitly meantion that 47% are white..." but that claim is far fetched and unfounded as it is not neccesary for the documents to mention races such as European, Mestizo, Indigenous or African at every page because, as established on it's titles the context of the whole thing is races and racism. Pob3qu3 (talk) 02:13, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

Agreed. I've worked on this article and scrutinised these sources on more than one occasion in order to refresh my memory. The content and sources are valid and reliable. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 03:22, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, but before writing this quote I took time to read the documents and most of the information is about the public opinion of Mexican society regarding racism in Mexico. And with respect to the source that says "47% of Mexicans responded to be caucasian" in a poll that was perhaps made to about 1,000, 5,000 or 10,000 (with marges of error), doesn't serve as a source in an article that speaks specifically about races and has (or should has) professional sources on this subject. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.151.61.164 (talk) 23:44, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

This is not a concise scientific article on DNA studies - which are still in their infancy and have articles dedicated to the science - but an article on the broad subject of the concept of what 'white Latin Americans' means. Self-identification and sourced content on 'races', admixtures, etc. is not the same thing as DNA. Excluding reliably sourced research and statistics is WP:PPOV. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:19, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

I have to intervene here, in regards to what the ip user said about the sample size of the survey in question, as he is stating that "it's only 1,000 or 5,000 people..." when it actually was 52,000 and was spread proportionally through all the cities/towns along the country. Making it the biggest and most reliable ethnicy survey performed in Mexico to date. Pob3qu3 (talk) 02:54, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

If so, I agree, although I suggest that instead of place 47% of white Mexicans as an official figure, the text should be changed to "according to a national survey, 47% of Mexicans answered to be white" (To say one example), for the moment is the only source that argues the 47% of mexicans are white vs much others who estimate 15-25%. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.151.61.164 (talk) 02:59, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Dear pob3qu3: In the section on "populations" there's another racial-identification survey made by the latinobarometro that surveys more than half million of Latin Americans (it is the largest statistical institution in the region) and reveals that only 6% of Mexicans answered to be of European origin. All statistics has margin of error between 5 and up to 30%. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.151.61.164 (talk) 03:10, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

It's nice that you mention Latinobarometro, as it's something I wanted to point out in here: In the mexico survey, according to the methodology included full document itsel, Latinobarometro interviewed only around 5000 people, and the surveys were made only in 4 cities: Mexico City, Puebla, Guadalajara and Monterrey, thus it's completely unreliable compared to CONAPRED's one. but that's not all, here's what I've wanted to point out for some time: Latinobarometro claims that, based in the interviews made in these 4 cities the indigenous average is 19%, nonetheless according to Mexico's national census in no one of these cities indigenous peoples are more than 3% of the population. So how did Latinobarometro obtain 19% indigenous by making interviews on cities where Indigenous peoples are never more than 3%? It's simple, their results are made up. Because this strong and well founded reasons latinobarometro is not reliable and Mexico should be removed from it's results on wikipedia. Pob3qu3 (talk) 03:33, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

While we're on the subject, I've also been considering the use of the World Factbook (incidentally, now showing 10%, not 9%). There have been copious discussions as to where and when the CIA Factbook should or shouldn't be used. It can be fine as a benchmark to check against when considering the best reliable sources for content, but not where (as with this case) they don't state their sources for the data they present, and have further noted that the Mexican census does not gather information on ethnicity. That being the case, from whence does their statistical breakdown emanate? --Iryna Harpy (talk) 03:54, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Indeed the world factbook has been target of criticism, specially when it comes to ethnic groups, in the case of Mexico, the ethnic breakdown comes from the 1921 census (as they're the same results), for other Latin American countries who do not account for ethnicy it might be guesswork. I don't believe it shouldn't be included on wiki at all, but it shouldn't be the axis on which an article (or ethnic composition) is written upon, albeit this sort of discussions, where the opposing party uses it's data as his/her main backup makes me think otherwise. Pob3qu3 (talk) 04:03, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

I finally found in the document a survey for identification of skin color and it turns out that in fact 64.6% of Mexicans were self-identified with brown skin and 10.9% of white skin (page 42). Also, the Latinobarometro works with 5,000 (actually 1,200 cases) for different month of survey period since 1996, because latinobarometro takes into account the evolution of public opinion, in other part, conapred made a study of 52,096 people only in 2010. The cia world factbook already removed the 1921 census data, currently has the ethnic information of mexico so: 62% mestizo, 21% Indio-mestizo, 10% European and 7% indigenous. Also in the note says: Mexico does not collect census data on ethnicity (2012 est.). Usually, those who criticize the data of the world factbook is the yellowish note when the data is not of the personal expected. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.151.60.100 (talk) 23:21, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Your claim in regards to the CONAPRED statement is properly addressed already in the article of Mexicans of European descent, I'll write the relevant points here: besides "blanco" the full survey included additional slang words that refer to white people in Mexico (güero, aperlado, apiñonado etc.) which increase the percentage, the other crucial poin is that moreno does not imply exclusively brown skin or being of mixed race in Mexico, a person with light skin but dark hair is refered to as a moreno aswell, all this claims are pertinently sourced already, this is why the CONAPRED made the aclaration that in total, 47% of Mexicans have European traits (light skin) as there are Europeans who are "morenos".
The CIA world factbook results are largely the same, they just divided the indigenous group on indo-mestizos and indigenous, the percentage of mestizos and whites is the same and they didn't do any field investigation to reach these results, Latinobarometro is still out of question as even if what you say was true, their sample population is considerably snaller and their results still make no sense when the demographics of the surveyed cities are checked, regardless of these sources official results by Mexico's government must be the priority here, as they conduct field investigations and research. Pob3qu3 (talk) 00:40, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

Then, according to your logic 47% is identified as European dividen into different skin tones and as some Europeans are "brown" makes that 64% also self-identify with brown skin? you're just contradicting yourself. In appart, independient the differente skin tones the results for conapred was:

• 64.6% brown
• 10.9% white
• 5.4% light
• no answer 4.7%
• "apiñonado" 4.3%
• "güero" 2.1%
• "apelardo" 1.7%
• dark-brown 1.2%
• chocolate 0.8%
• dark 0.7%
• yellow 0.6%
• "trigueño" 0.6%
• black 0.5%
• "prieto" 0.5%
• cinnamon 0.5%
• burned 0.4%
• Sun tanned 0.3%
• chestnut 0.2%

"" is for "tones" without english equivalent.

According to the results, White+Light+güero (Mexican localism to refer a caucasian) = 18.4% not 47%. "Apiñonado" isn't a "white tone". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.151.60.100 (talk) 01:26, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

"Apiñonado" is an ambiguous term, as it is "burnt" or "moreno" itself, cinnamon etc. do you really believe that there are no Europeans who are "morenos" (Europeans with dark hair or tanned skin)? anyway, rather than make this discussion even longer by discussing with you what each color means I'll limit myself to point out that in the documents has also been pointed out that 47% of Mexicans have light skin, and that this was made precisely because the color names tend (specially moreno) to be ambiguous. I'll also point out that this is all in official data from Mexico's government itself and it's based in extensive field research, which makes it the most reliable source used for Mexico in this article and the prioritized one, thus there was no reason to start this discussion to begin with as the more reliable a source is the better according to Wikipedia itself. Pob3qu3 (talk) 01:58, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

The Europeans who are tanned (especially those of the Iberian peninsula), is by the solar position. A very small minority of Europeans have mostly mongolian or African genes (obviously I'm not including immigrants). The Mexican government currently only estimate the percentage of indigenous people. Please, could you tell us where the pdf says that 47% of Mexicans are white? I read the document four times and what I found the figure that 64% was identified as brown skin. Greeting — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.151.60.100 (talk) 02:35, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

I find very interesting that you seem to not be aware that there's a very considerable amount of sun in Mexico, but I find even more interesting that you are now asking "where does it say that 47% of Mexicans are white" when you have previously acknowledged it already not one, but two times [1] [2], talk about stranger things!. Pob3qu3 (talk) 05:26, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

It's easy distinguish the European tan with a Latin tan. By the way, with respect to the "white skin tones" that use in your beloved institution, I have investigated that there are nuances in all the tones and it's imprudent affirm that are exclusively European tones, The "Apiñonado" was used to attach different racial mixtures (with clear or yellow tones), the "light" tone also refer to albinos (people of indigenous or African origin who suffered a discoloration), the "Cinnamon", "chesnut", "yellow", "burned" (even "Apiñonado") tones were in reality derogatory terms of Spaniards for the racial mixtures that they considered "abnormal" since after generations of mestizaje, several people began to leave with other colors of skin. If really conapred is prestigious as you claim, why they didn't include those specifications in the survey?...

Here, I was giving a solution for this discussion because for a moment i had believed that conapred said 47%, but after to clarify on page 42, now I think it was a confusion or malintension of you — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.151.60.36 (talk) 00:02, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

It doesn't make sense that you try to "invalidate" CONAPRED's statement of 47% of Mexicans having light skin, if they said it it's because that's how it is, you don't know better than them (at least you now acknowledge that they said it). Pob3qu3 (talk) 06:12, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

I didn't recognized it, I valued it as a possibility and was days ago not today, read better. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.151.60.36 (talk) 23:00, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

You changing your mind so this discussion can be extended doesn't change it, neither does you going to bother other editors on their talk pages trying to convince them of something that has been extensively discussed on this talk section already, which is that "moreno" has a wide definition in Mexico, with the word being used to refer to white skinned people with dark hair and people of African ancestry alike, it's because this that the CONAPRED settled it stating that in total 47% of Mexicans have white/light skin. Pob3qu3 (talk) 19:43, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

I'll kindly ask you for third time to indicate in which page is the data of "47% of whites mexicans", in the four times that I see the document, mainly appear results of surveys on racism in Mexico, and only a survey of racial identification. It also makes me curious that both conapred and lizcano used the quantitative method and you want to devalue lizcano because this gives a percentage much lower than your beloved 47% (according to you, provided by conapred). When you finally indicate the page, you have to remember that conapred has 114 pages if you thought to put page 200 or 300 (as you did in Mexicans of European descent). Goodnight. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.151.60.36 (talk) 05:21, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

The 47% figure appears in the press release of the survey, which you linked when you opened this section, you have previously acknowledged in this discussion, and right now you acknowledge it’s existence when you try to revert the Mexicans of European descent article with your other IP [3] by the way, the claim you were using to revert it is totally false, the 47% figure does not refer to all Mexicans who have any European ancestry, if we were to use that metric to quantify white Mexicans the percentage of white Mexicans would be much higher than 47%, as the average Amerindian Mexican is of 21% European ancestry [4]. All the claims you are doing right now are erratic, false and even contradictory. Pob3qu3 (talk) 03:38, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

The ip and his case is not relevant here because i'm not him. You still follow evading me, I asked you the page not section or communication, if you show me in what page and text exactly says that "47% of Mexicans are white", I will accept that my posture was totally wrong. For the moment you're just excusing your information and you're taking advantage of iryna's support. Greetings — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.151.61.228 (talk) 22:22, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

That is, with no hyperbole, the very first thing I answered in this discussion [5], we are going in circles now. Pob3qu3 (talk) 22:30, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

For all who see this thread, see the last comments here. My regards. --186.151.61.36 (talk) 20:11, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

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I have just modified 16 external links on White Latin Americans. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

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Source and data showed

There are some important sources of current genetics research cited on this page, wich are more objective and cuantitative than our opinion or than our points of view about the population. But the data showed in this page does not meet the source. For example, if a genetic reseach shows a population with 40% of european gene is imposible we can can stablish that this population is 80% european. When a trial say that a population is 57% european that county has mixed heritage but that does not mean that every individual in that country has 57% of european genoma and 33% of other genoma. That mean that a 57% of population has european gen. The most frequent a genoma from an ethnicity the most the proportion of population for this ethnicity for this population and vice versa, the less he genoma the less the posibilities to found this ethnicity in this population. Whe have to update de data in order order they meet the source we refer to. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.1.12.58 (talk) 02:27, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

Please note that this is an article about ethnicity and cultural identification/self-identification, not an article on the science of genetics, nor genetic research into what 'White Latin Americans' means (i.e., no original research. If you are concerned about the veracity and depiction of DNA studies - convoluted enough, and in their infancy - please take it to an appropriate article. It is WP:OFFTOPIC for this article. If there are problems with the current depictions, then we should form consensus to remove unsupported and unreliable content from this article, full stop. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 03:11, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

Guero and White

Can someone please show that guero is the same as self-identification as white amongst Mexicans? A previous user was intentionally vandalizing Mexican related pages to falsely increase the apparent percentage of Mexican to identify as white. Given this vandalism, I'm very skeptical of claims which greatly increase that percentage. We need reliable sources which indicate that these two concepts are synonymous , as opposed to one being a description of skin tone in the other being a description of racial identity. EvergreenFir (talk) 06:29, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

I told you to look up wikitionary, but here's another one [6] in fact in the article there are 3 different studies that have concluded that 18-23% of mexico's population have blond hair alone, so how can only 10% of Mexico's population be white? Pob3qu3 (talk) 06:38, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

Blond is not the same as White. How can you suggest that certain hair colors or eye colors make you a specific race? Unless you can demonstrate with that within the Mexican cultural context blonde hair makes someone White, we need sources which specifically state racial identities and not phenotypes or skin tones.

From what I can tell about the term guero, it is a reference to skin tone and not necessarily a racial category.

Please note that this article is about the racial category of white, not about skin tones necessarily. We should rely upon surveys or censuses which specifically asked about racial self-identification not about self-perceptions of skin tone or other body variation such as hair color. EvergreenFir (talk) 06:52, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

The article I linked here even uses the terms interchangeably, and the 47% figure comes from a document that is titled "March 21, International day against race discrimination" and talks about racists practises in Mexican society based on a person appearance, appearance in this context is the same as race, the Mexican government likely opts for using phenotypical traits (skin, hair color etc.) to obtain a more exact percentage regarding the country's European population. Pob3qu3 (talk) 07:01, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

Mexico discussion

Excuse me for my english, but the topic that I am going to touch is of my interest and my knowledge because, recently the last two years, i'm looking at the White Latin Americans article, and i am watching recently that the percentages of the white population in Mexico are crazy and have no common sense, besides not revealing true sources where that is confirmed, since in the link provided by CONAPRED it does not appear anywhere that Mexicans admit to be 47% white , first of all and with all the respect and seriousness, I have always understood that the white population in Mexico does not exceed 10%, since it is a country mostly mestizo and with an important Amerindian population, since I understand that great civilizations Indians inhabited Mexico, as is the Aztec (all of Mexico) or the Mayan culture that inhabited Yucatan, in addition to other not so famous but considerable and many other Amerindian cultures, the fact is that I was reading the PDF of CONAPRED, and has nothing what to do with the percentages or censuses of the country, since people are saying the following:

As I understood, on March 21 is celebrated the day of the elimination of racial discrimination in Mexico, then the National Council to Prevent Discrimination (Conapred) and the National Autonomous University of Mexico (UNAM) conducted a SURVEY (not census), with the aim of understanding racism in that country. What I could understand is that 65 - 70% of Mexicans are brown, that is to say, mestizos, these people say they have no problem in having to live with people of another race, while the remaining 23% said that they would not be willing, and 10% said that it depended on the situation, so you asked? who are that 23% and 10% who would not be willing? You will see as it says in the CIA factbook Mexico , says mestizo (Amerindian-Spanish) 62%, predominantly Amerindian 21%, Amerindian 7%, other 10% (mostly European), well we already understood the percentages, but our collaborator Pob3qu3 keeps insisting that the population identifies itself as white, when that did not appear at any time in the text of CONAPRED since I am Spanish speaker and very good Spanish, even better than English, as the text said IS A SURVEY ON SOCIAL PROBLEMS, NOT ON NATIONAL CENSORS EITHER RACIAL THEME STATISTICS, then for me, the references of Pob3qu3 do not have the necessary evidence to affirm that data, it also happens with the white population which is 11 million, there is no article on the internet that states that Mexico has 53 million white people at the height of Brazil , Argentina or Colombia, which are countries with large white population and official data, real censuses of those countries, which take into account racial identification through genetic tests, as a collaborator said recently, he read the 1921 census of Mexico and there it is affirmed that the Mexican population is of 9% or 10% as the CIA affirms factbook at the moment, so that was all, I wanted to leave you the restlessness, because I want to edit the population sections of Mexico, since I have the Valid references to do it, but I do not do it without your opinion, because I would be behaving in a malicious way like Pob3qu3 vandalizing the article with false information, regards — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ignorantes22 (talk • contribs) 02:28, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

References

Race is a taboo topic in Mexico, especially when it comes to Mexico's two largest demographics who are Mestizos and Whites, because of this it's a common practice to calculate the percentages of Mexico's white population based on phenotypical traits such as hair or skin color instead of asking people if they think they are one race or another. For example one study, by the American Sociological Association asserted that, based in the prescence of blond hair the percentage of White Mexicans is 18.8%, another study made by Mexico's metropolitan University use this methodology and calculated 23%, thus, Mexico's white population being only 10% is not realistic (and the accuracy of the 1921 census, which is the root of that figure, has been contested), especially when considering that according to the article for Blond hair said trait has it's highest frequency on Scandinavian nations at around 50%-60% (nobody would go around saying that only half of Scadinavians are white!). Another fact is that in northern Spain (the zone from which most white Mexican's ancestors come from) the frequency of blond hair is 30%-40%. Going back to the Conapred, it does a similar thing just with skin color instead of hair color, and asserts that Mexicans with light skin are 47%. While in the documents terms such as "White" nor "Mestizo" are specifically used (because again, race is very taboo) "European looking" and "European features" are, which is beyond doubt used a less controversial synonym for "white". Pob3qu3 (talk) 03:27, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

I understand what you describe to me about whites and mestizos, these populations also exist throughout Latin America, and the same social problem of racism is experienced throughout the region.

I do not need to explain the types of race, I am chilean and I understand it perfectly, the problem is that the survey carried out by CONAPRED is not a census, much less an official census, since the survey refers to to the social problem, affirming that 64% of Mexicans are mestizos and that the other remaining percentage would not like to live with other ethnic groups, but the remaining percentage never makes reference to 47% self-identified as white, on the contrary that 47% is divided into 21% Amerindian, 7% unidentified Amerindian races, 9% European descent and 2% Gypsies and foreign ethnic groups, it is absurd that you invent that 47% claim to be white, when the text never states this, much less says that they are 53 million, these are invented data.

Look, I understand how difficult are the issues of racism and discrimination, in Chile you live the same situation, but you can not put that kind of references in a racial census article, you should put the CONAPRED reference in a wikipedia article that speaks of racism and discrimination, because in this article you do it in the wrong way, inventing data and generating controversy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ignorantes22 (talk • contribs) 13:45, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

Nowhere in any of the cited documents there's a reference to Mestizos, directly or indirectly (unlike with White Mexicans, who are refered to as being "European looking"). I assume you are basing your "64% of Mexicans are Mestizos" claim on the question on which 64% of Mexicans considered themselves morenos, however moreno and Mestizo is not the same as moreno has no racial connotations (maybe it does in Chile but not in Mexico, where it is used equally for white people with dark hair/eyes as it is for Africans), I don't think that you are not aware that morenos (tanned and/or dark eyed/haired people) exist in Europe. That you are trying to pass moreno as being the same as Mestizo and at the same time dismiss "European looking" as an equivalent for White screams "double standards" to me. This with no mention that the extant evidence that is already cited in the article (frequency of blond hair, light eyes, Mongolian spot etc. books that assert that the majority of northern and western Mexicans are white, books that point out inconsistences in the 1921 census and books with the populations for colonial cities) completely contradict the "Mexico is only 9%-15% white" posture you are trying to push, no matter how much you criticize the Conapred source for not being completely direct, all these other sources also support the claim of Mexico's white population being between 40%-50%, forget about reverting the percentage of White Mexicans to 9%-15%, it's simply not true. Pob3qu3 (talk) 19:49, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

Is that I'm not inventing myself, here http://www.worldstatesmen.org/Mexico.htm https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/mx.html https://www.britannica.com/place/Mexico/Ethnic-groups I will leave the three references that rule that Mexico does not exceed 9-15%, stop repeating the same sermon as always, that the moreno, that the guero, the moreno and the guero exist in all Latin America, there is even more in Chile than in your beloved Mexico, so i can understand it perfectly, also "MORENO" and "GUERO", "RUBIO" are not even races taken into account in the census of any country that is not even taken into account as races, what are you talking about? do not want to admit the little white population that your country has, then take any article you find in Spanish and invent whatever it takes to modify the data at your convenience, the other collaborators have had the same discussion with you, and you are always disqualifying official pages like the CIA FACTBOOK, like BRITANNICA O LEZCANO, but it does not lack words to invent things, as I say I am Chilean, I am Spanish just like you, and the PDF of CONAPRED only speaks of racism and discrimination in Mexico, limiting itself to speak only about that topic, the only percentages that are given there are the same as those given in the CIA FACTBOOK and those shown by BRITANNICA, at no time are people claiming to be white, mestizo, etc., since Mexico has not had No census in recent times, and the reference you give, is limited to being a popular survey of social problems carried out by a university and a foundation, Give me TESTS AND GRAPHICS, as the censuses that the governments of the countries give, or of foreign pages that worry precisely about that topic, stop seeing us the face of idiots, that here has someone who knows Spanish and does not allow himself to be duped. I know how you always disrupt and manipulate all the articles that have to do with Mexico, just for your convenience, as Iñaki warned you at the end of 2017, until you do not prove the reason of your inventions, reverse the changes until you get tired. If you do not give me concise and demonstrable proofs, such as those given by the collaborators and I, I will stop paying attention to the repetitive and meaningless answers that you give.

Aca mis referencias y pruebas de lo que aporte en el artículo, ahora solo te falta desacreditar la CIA FACTBOOK que es lo unico que sabes responder ..... / Here my references and proofs of what I contribute in the article, now you only need to discredit the CIA FACTBOOK since it is the only thing that you know how to respond ......

https://www.britannica.com/place/Mexico/Ethnic-groups (GRAPHICS 15% MEXICO WHITE POP)

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/mx.html (CENSUS AND PERCENTAGE 9% MEXICO WHITE POP)

http://www.worldstatesmen.org/Mexico.htm (15% MEXICO WHITE POPULATION AGAIN)

¿Entonces yo me lo invento? haber sacame otra excusa. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ignorantes22 (talk • contribs) 02:38, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

The worldfactbook bases it's estimation on the 1921 census, as I told above, in recent times it's accuracy has been disputed, as according to local censuses and church registers previous to it multi-racial marriages were rare compared to unions between people of the same race/ethnicity, thus it's not a figure to base the sections of Mexico on. Encyclopedia Brittanica does the same thing, it attemps to actualize it a little, but if the root figure has been deemed inconsistent it's figure is imprecise too, additionaly the article takes various liberties that are factually wrong, for example, it asserts that "The north of Mexico is overwhelmingly Mestizo" which is completely wrong according to actual field research made in Mexico such as the ASA paper, which points out that blond hair (the actual percentage of Mexicans with blond hair alone is 18.8%, which is higher than the estimation Brittanica gives for ALL white Mexicans!) has it's higher frequency in north Mexico, this evidence alone proves Brittanica's text and estimations are currently wrong. Your third source, worldstatesmen, only reuses the figures britannica gives so it's not valid either, in conclusion there's no reason to prioritize sources that actual field research and published books by people specialized in the field prove wrong, we have to go with the best sources aviable, not the most "popular" ones. By the way, you didn't even try to say anything to refute these sources I mention above (frequency of blond hair, light eyes, mongolian spot, the book by Howard F. Cline, the book that shows the ethnic composition of colonial Mexican cities etc.) all of which back up the 40%-50% figure, i don't really know what more proof you need. I also must add that in fact, I had a very similar discussion some months ago with an IP user, i'm almost sure it too was you [7] the editor has the same arguments and intentionally leaves his posts unsigned, I'm don't want to fall on your game of personal attacks but I'm confident that you've been behind practically all the discussions I've had about the percentage of white Mexicans on this site (and behind this message [8] on my talk page). You are not looking very good here thus I think it's better if you keep composture because to treathen with blindly revert changes you don't like until I "get tired of fixing them" further worsens your image. Pob3qu3 (talk) 04:42, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

Nice excuse saying that I had already had an argument with you, when I do not even know who you are, or what your intentions are, I do not know what your racial complex is, of which you can not admit that Mexico has a low white population , I do not know what your political intentions or lies are for the purpose of a hoax, if people have had the same discussion with you, it is because it is known in all articles of the internet, that the population of Mexico does not exceed 9% or 15%. %, wikipedia is not made for self-conscious people who want to manipulate articles for personal satisfaction, I have no problem with the reference of CONAPRED, I have problem is that you misinterpret the text data, THE CONAPRED TEXT SAYS "y un 47% señaló que los indígenas no tienen las mismas oportunidades para obtener un trabajo en México." , At what point are people saying that they have light skin? This is a confirmed hoax with the sole purpose of deceiving people, with the excuse of using an article from CONAPRED that has nothing to do with it. This page sums it up very well

https://www.animalpolitico.com/2017/06/racismo-discriminacion-piel-mexico/ https://www.animalpolitico.com/2017/06/racismo-discriminacion-piel-mexico/ I will have to send your reference <ref>http://www.conapred.org.mx/userfiles/files/Enadis-2010-RG-Accss-002.pdf http://www.conapred.org.mx/documentos_cedoc/21_Marzo_DiaIntElimDiscRacial_INACCSS.pdf http://www.conapred.org.mx/documentos_cedoc/Dossier%20DISC-RACIAL.pdf to List of Hoaxes on Wikipedia.

It's true Mexico does not have a national census since 1921, but it can be true and official, so you do not have to eliminate it and impose yours, the wikipedia is for everyone and the sources must be reliable and approved, soon I will contact an administrator, with you there is no agreement of any kind.

You suffer from a tremendous racial complex! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ignorantes22 (talk • contribs) 16:14, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

I'm not misinterpreting any data, the 47% figure appears in the page 7 of this document [9], the reasons to distrust the 1921 census and figures based on it such as the worldfactbook or Brittanica is because it's completely incosistent with the results provided by local censuses and church registers of Mexico around that time, these claims are not made up by me, they're made by published academics [10]. Furthermore you still haven't explained how the other sources I've brought, namely the studies that show that Mexico has a frequency of blond hair of 18%-23% [11] [12] [13], or the ones that show the Mongolian spot has a frequency of around 50% in Mexicans [14], the book that textually asserts that the majority of Mexicans in western and northern Mexico are white [15] or the book that gives the ethnic breakdown of Mexican cities [16] are not valid, these sources are totally reliable, moreso than yours (as one directly invalidates them) and completely refute your claim of Mexico's white population being only 9%-15%. You can't pretend they aren't there. And I'm completely sure that we've argued this many times before. Pob3qu3 (talk) 20:29, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

STUPID BASTARD!! that ip is from Guatemala, I'm from Chile, You dont read anything no? in the text says only,

"La mayoría de las mujeres mexicanas (54%) tienden a decir de sí mismas que tienen tonos de piel más bien claros; esto comparado con un 40% de hombres que respondió lo mismo. Puede ser que esto quiera decir que a las mujeres de nuestro país –influenciadas por una publicidad francamente racista en los medios de comunicación y por los prejuicios que México aún arrastra contra la tez morena– les cuesta más trabajo que a los hombres reconocer su verdadero color de piel, porque consideran que el tono moreno no es equivalente a la belleza." No te pases de listo, indio acomplejado que pongas textos en español no quiere decir que te puedas burlar de la wikipedia en ingles, ese texto nunca esta afirmando de manera confiable que México pase del 9 - 15% de blancos MENTIROSO! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ignorantes22 (talk • contribs) 16:48, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

Mejor dicho, no se que tipo de complejo usted tenga con los demas paises latinoamericanos o con Estados Unidos, pero si tiene tantos complejos de inferioridad emocionales y personales para no aceptar a las personas de su pais, cambie de enciclopedia, pero deje de engañar al público de wikipedia eng, no hay ningún articulo en toda internet que respalde lo que usted esta diciendo. La "piel clara" o "moreno" no es sinónimo de ser blanco o indígena, es solo un fenotipo físico y usted no demuestra nada con gráficas o estadísticas, simplemente estas tratando de burlarte de la wikipedia en ingles poniendo un articulo en español que no tiene que ver nada con este tema.

Better said, I do not know what kind of complex you have with the other Latin American countries or the United States, but if you have so many emotional and personal inferiority problems to not accept the people of your country, change the encyclopedia, but stop fooling the public of wikipedia eng, there is no article on the internet that supports what you are saying. "piel clara" or "moreno" is not synonymous with being white or indigenous, it's just a physical phenotype and you show nothing with graphs or statistics, You are simply trying to make hoax of wikipedia in English by putting an article in Spanish that has nothing to do with this topic.

There is nothing to negotiate with you, since you lack arguments, until never / no hay nada que negociar con usted, ya que usted carece de argumentos, hasta nunca. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ignorantes22 (talk • contribs) 17:40, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

Ese texto del CONAPRED no tiene ninguna relevancia en este artículo, ya que si las mexicanas se consideran blancas igual no tiene nada que ver con las cifras reales ya que como usted dice Mexico no ha tenido un censo actualmente, salvo el censo de 1930 que afirma que solo el 9% de la población es criolla no mestiza, ya que una persona blanca en Mexico es de piel muy oscura comparada a una persona blanca de Uruguay, Argentina, Brasil, Colombia, Costa Rica, Venezuela, Puerto Rico y Cuba. En conclusión Mexico es un pais de predominante mestizo y amerindio, hay muchas fuentes y artículos en internet que comprueban lo que yo estoy diciendo.

Ahora sí hasta nunca, no tengo nada que discutir con usted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ignorantes22 (talk • contribs) 19:21, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

Putting aside all the insults you threw in your last replies you still haven't refuted any of the actual sources I've provided including those that put in question the 1921 census. Use simple logic: Mexico has higher rates of blond hair and light eyes than Chile and Colombia, who according to this article are around 52% and 37% white, so how can Mexico be only 9% white? (this also invalidates your claim of "a white person in Mexico being much darker than a white person in South American countries). Again, the Conapred study is completely valid because the Mexican government use "light skinned Mexican" as an equivalent for "White Mexican". Anyone who reads the publications cited and also explores media outlets in Mexico can inmediately see that the narrative of inequalities between light skinned Mexicans and dark skinned Mexicans is completely analogous to the Whites and non-whites narrative that exists in other countries such as the US, including mentions of systematic racism, power structures, privilege etc. You are trying to cover the sun with a finger. Finally, I made an exhaustive research regarding the latinobarometer 2016 report you are currently using as a source to lower the population of white Mexicans and I discovered that the 2016 survey actually didn't have any results regarding a person's race and the source used here is fake (which explains why it links to an image hosted in slideshare rather than to the actual full document) so I'll take it down. Pob3qu3 (talk) 20:29, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

Clarifications and doubts about the white population of Mexico

Greetings and we had this discussion with Pob3qu3 previously, and could not reach any agreement, since the user is repeatedly asked to explain the reason for their references http://www.conapred.org.mx/documentos_cedoc/21_Marzo_DiaIntElimDiscRacial_INACCSS. pdf - http://www.conapred.org.mx/userfiles/files/Enadis-2010-RG-Accss-002.pdf - http://www.conapred.org.mx/documentos_cedoc/Dossier%20DISC-RACIAL. pdf , Pob3qu3 does not give a good explanation or arguments, always answers the same, that the meaning of his references only speak of the color of the skin of Mexicans and of the social problem of racism that the country suffers.

But beyond the color of the skin, his references do not specify official data of DNA tests or censuses of the government in the country, therefore, the references of Pob3qu3 are irrelevant, since the same has not wanted to understand that his references are not in the indicated article, since in the White Latin Americans article we talk about percentages and populations carried out through censuses and DNA tests.

Anyway, there are many users who are defending Pob3qu3 and are on his side, i believe that they will do it by racial or political ideology, I don't know, the fact is that I want to make this note so that other users find out about this, I also want to make some questions to the user Pob3qu3 .

-If you say that Mexico has 64% mestizos and 47% white people = 111% in total, what??? WOW so it is the only country in the world that has a total population of 111%, and where is the 21% of Indigenous that the CIA Factbook https://www.cia.gov/library/Publications/the-world-factbook/geos/mx.html says, Britannica https://www.britannica.com/place/Mexico/Ethnic-groups and WorldStatesmen.org http://www.worldstatesmen.org/Mexico.html ? and many articles in the wikipedia affirm this, in both English and Spanish. https://www.cia.gov/library/Publications/the-world-factbook/geos/mx.html - https://www.britannica.com/place/Mexico/Ethnic-groups - http://www.worldstatesmen.org/Mexico.htm

-Hide the indigenous population of a country like Mexico, sounds somewhat ridiculous, since Mexico is the Latin American and North American country with more indigenous population, therefore Mexico has the largest indigenous population of the continent and there is an article in English wikipedia that proves it, You must know which article it is. Mexico has indigenous civilizations http://neomexicanismos.com/cultura-mexico/pueblos-indigenas-de-mexico-lista-completa-cuantos-son-donde-se-encuentran/ http://sic.cultura.gob.mx/index.php?table=grupo_etnico such as: http://sic.cultura.gob.mx/index.php?table=grupo_etnico - http://neomexicanismos.com/cultura-mexico/pueblos-indigenas-de-mexico-lista-completa-cuantos-son-donde-se-encuentran/ For example, the Aztecs, the Mixtecs, the Mayans, the Zapotecs, the Otomies and all those that appear on the list among many others

Baja California 1. Kiliwa (Ensenada) 2. Cochimí (Ensenada) 3. Paipai (Ensenada) 4. Cucapá (Mexicali) 5. Kumiai (Playas de Rosarito)

Campeche 6. Ixcil (Campeche) 7. Quiché (Champotón) 8. Kanjobal (Champotón) 9. Kekchi (Champotón)

Coahuila 10. Kikapu (Coahuila)

Chiapas 11. Jacalteco (Amatenango de la Frontera) 12. Mame (Amatenango de la Frontera) 13. Tojobal (Las Margaritas) 14. Cakchiquel (Mazapa de Madero) 15. Motozintleco (Motozintla) 16. Lacandón (Ocosingo) 17. Tzeltal (Ocosingo) 18. Zoque (Rayón) 19. Tsotsil (San Cristóbal de las Casas) 20. Chol (Tila) 21. Chuj (La Trinitaria)

Chihuahua 22. Tarahumara (Guachochi) 23. Pima (Madera) 24. Tepehuan del Norte (Guadalupe y Calvo)

Durango 25. Tepehuan del Sur (Durango)

Guanajuato 26. Chichimeca (Guanajuato)

Guerrero 27. Amuzgo (Ometepec) 28. Mixteco Mixteca Alta (Tlapa de Comonfort) 29. Mixteco (Tlapa de Comonfort) 30. Tlapaneco (San Luis Acatlán)

Hidalgo 31. Náhuatl (Huejutla los Reyes) 32. Otomí (Ixmiquilpan)

Estado de México 33. Mazahua (Iztlahuaca) 34. Ocuitleco (Ocuilan) 35. Matlatzinca (Temascaltepec)

Michoacán 36. Purépecha (Michoacán)

Nayarit 37. Cora (Del Nayar) 38. Huichol (La Yesca)

Oaxaca 39. Mazateco (Huautla de Jiménez) 40. Zapoteco (Heroica Ciudad de Juchitán Zaragoza) 41. Triqui (San Martín Itunyoso) 42. Huave (San Mateo del Mar) 43. Chatino (San Miguel Panixtlahuaca) 44. Zapoteco Vallista (San Pedro Pochutla) 45. Zapoteco de Ixtlán (San Pedro Pochutla) 46. Chontal de Oaxaca (San Matía Ecatepec) 47. Zapoteco Sureño (Santa María Huatulco) 48. Ixcateco (Santa María Ixcatlán) 49. Chocho (Santa María Nativitas) 50. Mixe (Santa María Petapa) 51. Tacuate (Santa María Zacatepec) 52. Cuicateco (Santos Reyes Pápalo) 53. Chinanteco (San Juan Bautista Valle Nacional)

Puebla 54. Mixteco Mixteca Baja (San Jerónimo Xayacatlán) 55. Popoloca (Tlacotepec de benito Juárez)

San Luís Potosí 56. Huasteco (Ebano) 57. Pame (Santa Catarina)

Sinaloa 58. Mixteco de la Costa (Culiacán) 59. Mixteco Zona Mazateca (Culiacán)

Sonora 60. Guajíro (Alamos) 61. Mayo (Guatabampo) 62. Yaqui (Guaymas) 63. Pápago (General Plutarco Elías Calles) 64. Seri (Hermosillo)

Tabasco 65. Chontal (Tabasco)

Veracruz 66. Totonaca (Filomeno Mata) 67. Popoluca (Sayula de Alemán)

Yucatán 68. Maya (Península de Yucatán)

-However, in most cases, the references and sources that verify the race of a population should not be about skin color, the references should be according to censuses that study the population's DNA, or that the population self-identify as such and taking into account both genders, both male and female.

-User Pob3qu3, nowhere in the text says that 53 million Mexicans are white http://www.conapred.org.mx/userfiles/files/Enadis-2010-RG-Accss-002.pdf http://www.conapred.org.mx/documentos_cedoc/Dossier%20DISC-RACIAL.pdf http://www.conapred.org.mx/documentos_cedoc/21_Marzo_DiaIntElimDiscRacial_INACCSS. pdf these texts don't show that 47% of the Mexican population is white, on page 7 only says that 47% of women believe that having "clear" skin is more aesthetic.

I don't see how Mexico having a diverse Indigenous population clashes with Mexico having a large White population, as the sources who question the veracity of the 1921 census point out that in reality marriages between Whites and indigenous peoples were rare [17]. The CONAPRED document is unambiguously clear when it points that 47% of Mexico's population declared to have light skin, it doesn't say that women thought that "light skin is aesthetic" as you say, nor says that 64% of the population are Mestizos, it says that 64% of the population called themselves Morenos, a term that also includes light skinned Eurodescendants with dark hair, Eurodescendants who are tanned, Indigenous peoples, Afrodescendant peoples etc. said question is also a different one from the one who asks Mexicans to visually identify their skin color, which is less ambiguous and is from which the 47% figure comes from. Furthermore, last year a new nationwide survey was released by the INEGI and on it, the percentage of Mexicans who had light skin was 49%[18] (similarly to the CONAPRED survey, it's split in various documents that have to be collected to have a more complete insight of it's results). It's beyond obvious that Mexico's government is using "light-skinned Mexican" instead of "White Mexican" on efforts to reduce racialist connotations and narratives, efforts which judging by the articles published by many news outlets following the release of those documents have been futile as those outlets are already fully subscribed to the "whites vs non-whites" narratives that are seen in other western countries with large white populations. You say that censuses that study a population DNA are necessary (even though no national census anywhere in the world does that) but genetics refute your posture aswell, as there are studies on which samples of so-called "Mexican Mestizos" have exhibited genetic frequencies the most similar to Europeans[19] and European derived Americans/White Americans[20], additionally literary evidence asserting that indeed, the majority of Mexicans living on the regions on which the analyzed states (Durango and Jalisco) are located are White exists aswell[21]. We are going in circles with this discussion. Pob3qu3 (talk) 19:58, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

Data for Paraguay and Mexico

Hello Everybody, in this article I added the link of Britannica source because the link of Britannica in seccion of "Mexico" adressess the data of Chile (the text: Estimates of Mexico’s white population differ greatly in both, methodology and percentages given, extra-official sources such as the World factbook and Encyclopedia Brittanica, which use the 1921 census results as the base of their estimations calculate Mexico’s White population as only 9% or between one tenth to one fifth), and the reference of World Factbook is broken. The most recent change of Britannica include a pie chart that specified that Mexico is 15% pure caucasian taking account periods and generations of mestizaje with the Azteca´s population, not on genetic admixture or self-identification. Also, I added the reference of Lizcano for Paraguay, because in the seccion "Regions with significant populations", the reference for Paraguay was Lizcano while in "Populations" there were added the World Factbook data, based in public opinion without take account that in Paraguay nearly all people indentified themselves as mestizo, contrary for the rest of Latin American where the "european pride" is very remarkable. Thanks for Understand, Good Day.--Nance 47 (talk) 01:08, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

I've fixed the links, however we can't give more relevance to Brittanica's numbers than to other sources because it's base are the results of the 1921 census, which has been proven to be inconsistent when compared to the rest of the local censuses and church registers of the post-independence era. Even more importantly modern research returns results that completely clash with the numbers of Brittanica and that are already included in the article such as the frequency of Blond hair in Mexicans, which at 18%-23% is higher than the number of white Mexicans Brittanica estimates there is in modern Mexico (this inconsistence becomes more notorious when it's considered that not all native European peoples have blond hair). Because of this it's better if all the views and sources are considered when writting the article sections that are about Mexico, so the reader can have a more complete and informed insight of said topic. You are completely welcome to edit the Paraguay section of the article when you do it with proper ortography and stop removing the information of Mexico, it's possible to do one thing without doing the other simultaneosly every time you edit. Pob3qu3 (talk) 03:10, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay, The text of Mexico needs more neutral paragraphs, any reader will know that in most paragraphs for other countries there aren´t problems to put the lowest and highest estimation without devaluate or overvaluate depending the interest for each editor (for example, in Chile is visible two long-different estimates putted in neutral form, the 20% of Britannica and the 52.7% of Lizcano), but in the text of Mexico all sources that calculate 20% or less for caucasian Mexicans were catalogates without exception that are based only in the 1921 census, not necessarily all sources are based on the 1921 census, wich is knowed that is erroneous, and obviously more than 9% of Mexicans are Caucasian, but the 47% of self-identification is another extreme, now in the "european-pride" side, and I don´t say that, the sources placed for the frequency of blond-hair and blue-eyes say it [22] [23](Many Mexicans today nevertheless express a preference for whiter skin and European features, even though no clear system of skin color categorization appears to exist), also in most of Latin American countries there are high preference for european characteristics, for these reason the sources of self-identification couldn´t be the only notewhorthy figure for each country. Good Night. --Nance 47 (talk) 03:48, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

The case of Mexico is more complicated than Mexicans who are not white considering themselves as such, as there also are white Mexicans who are not aware that they are white (or that are being classified as mestizos without being asked or informed about it), this is shown in varous genetic studies already included in the article on which it's been stated that analyzed mestizos turned out to be very similar genetically to actual Europeans. Neither of these extremes is honest to reality and Mexico's government awareness of this may be the reason for which it's been opted for calculating the number of Eurodescendant Mexicans primarily (as there have been censuses on which Mexicans have been able to identify as white, but the results are not published) per phenotypical traits. While skin color surveys may not be flawless the two nationwide official surveys that have been made (on 2010 and 2017) returned similar results despite each using a different color palette, which gives some certainty of the results not being that off of reality. I don't think there's not neutrality when it comes to the different estimates given for white Mexicans, it may look like that to you because there are more recent field investigations that suggest a white Mexican population of around 40%-50% than there are sources that suggest a white Mexican population of below 15% (in fact, no source that gives a percetage that low is an actual, recent field investigation) but still each gets it's mention, even the one that says they are only 9% of the population (which both of us agree is wrong). Pob3qu3 (talk) 20:11, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

Where in Lizcano does it say 20% for Paraguay? I don't see it. EvergreenFir (talk) 23:49, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

Oh I already understood, The Case of Mexico could be similar to Paraguay, people identify themselves as ´mestizo´ much in cultural terms, I hadn´t read the documents of conapred in which makes a separation about those who identify themselves as ´white´ and who identify with ´clear skin´, 15% in first and 47% in second, that´s makes sense. In Paraguay nearly all people know their roots and ancestry but nearly all perfer indentify themselves as ´mestizo´, but according to genetical researches in samples of two or four thousand people, around 54% of paraguayans contain more than 60% of European DNA (Castizo), another 5% contain more than 90% of European DNA (Pure White), however as Paraguayan I prefer put the 20% that Lizcano estimate that appears clearly in the table of page 218 of document (or page 34 in Wayback Machine). Good Afternoon.--Nance 47 (talk) 19:30, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

The first conapred question you mention is not about race as besides "blanco" other words who can be used to refer to Eurodescendant people are listed, including "moreno" whose definition is very wide and can be applied to any race/ethnicity. Nonetheless there's times where "moreno" is used as a racial term to contrast with "blanco", which is one of the many reasons racial dynamics in Mexico are particularly complicated.Pob3qu3 (talk) 03:48, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

References

Misconceptions and Generalizations pertaining to "Race"

When speaking about Hispanics who consider white, it is not mentioned the difference between race and ethnicity and the controversy/fault of the term "race." The article shows bias by assuming that being white relates to socioeconomic status and Latin Americans only consider themselves white if they have money. This is a generalization that is not backed up by sufficient evidence. In addition, the frequent mention about descent from Europe but not other more prominent origins gives a wrong impression of Latin American origin, giving a misconception. Furthermore, when speaking about "white population" in Brazil it does not say what that means or rather who considers these people to be white and under what characteristics, which implies a biased and hasty generalization. Kstassis (talk) 14:03, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

Your assertions need to be more specific. Much of the article is sourced; and self-identification—mixed with genetic studies as there are those, too—is a large part of what the article is about and does not sit in judgement of. Whether that self-identification is deplorable is where bias also intrudes. Dhtwiki (talk) 02:53, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

The fake of White Mexicans

According to ENADIS-Conapred, 36% of Man and 55% of Woman have trends to identificate themselves with light skin tones, this reference was used to establish the 47% of white people in Mexico, but the situation is that around 64% of mexicans also identificate themselves as brunette or brown, actually its a good reference, but the principal issue in the document is the racism in Mexico by racial, sexual orientation, religion, some opinion, social class, etc. In the page 40 and 42 , and 7 in this other document, confirms that several Mens and scpecially Womans have trends to choose lightest skin tones influenced by the Media (white artists or influencers), Mexicans haved been psicologically damaged by racism with 55% of positive answers when tey were asked if other people insulted them for racial or skin color, I recomend the read of these pages from Google [24] [25]

Doubtful sources

the Metropolitan Autonomous University of Mexico calculated the percentage of said ethnic group at 23%.[78]

Actually, UNAM made a survey for 500 universitaries in Mexico City, in which 23% of them respond that have light skin color. View Table II.

the American Sociological Association obtained a percentage of 18.8% having its higher frequency on the North region (22.3%–23.9%) followed by the Center region (18.4%–21.3%) and the South region (11.9%).[79]

Those ranges and percentage re not avaible for free, the document cost 36$

surveys that use as reference skin color such as those made by Mexico's National Council to Prevent Discrimination and Mexico's National Institute of Statistics and Geography reported a percentages of 47% in 2010[81] and 49% in 2017[82][83] respectively.

Sources 82 and 83 are not avaible. --186.151.62.200 (talk) 22:22, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Skin tone Choosed by Women P.40	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9
Percentage	3.8	5.9	5	7.4	9.4	13.6	32.5	6.8	14.2

Skin tone Choosed by Men P.41	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9
Percentage	4.3	8.4	14.3	7	11.1	13.9	20.7	5.8	12.9

Racial Identification in Mexico P.42

  Moreno (64.6%)

  Blanco (10.9%)

  Claro (5.4%)

  Apiñonado (4.3%)

  Güero (2.1%)

  Apelardo (1.7%)

  Cafe (1.2%)

  Chocolate (0.8%)

  Oscuro (0.7%)

  Amarillo (0.6%)

  Other (3%)

  No Asnwer (5%)

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.151.62.200 (talk) 19:49, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Are there any reliable sources which suggest these percentages are wrong? We need sources to tell us percentages, not personal interpretations of them. EvergreenFir (talk) 21:09, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

This article documents people's self-identification as white without condemning it. As EvergreenFir asks, are the studies wrong on how many identify as such? That's the question that should be addressed. The rest smacks of editorializing. Dhtwiki (talk) 22:10, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

There are not personal interpretations. Mexicans have trends to indentificate themselves with light skin tones for the racism and the influence of the Media According to ENADIS-Conapred in the pages 40,42 ,7 , you can read it, although the documents are in Spanish. If you review the percentage instead the context, is not the best way, according to basic knowledges of Statistics, a survey with less than 1,000 participants is not representative, for these reason the 23% that stablish UNAM is not representative for Mexico. Thanks.--186.151.62.200 (talk) 22:29, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

A sample size of 1000 can easily be representative if sampling techniques are good and sampling error is low. But your assertion that the data are flawed due to internalized racist ideology is WP:OR. As long as wikipedia describes the data correctly as self perception, I don't see a problem. EvergreenFir (talk) 03:50, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

You are saying that Conapreds dont maked an Original Research, I only translate in Englihs the information that provides Conpared: In the pie chart, 60% of Mexicans feels that are unequal trate at least in part for all races and color skin in Mexico (Page 42), both man and women thought that white skin are equivalent to beauty and better personal presentation influenced by racist publicities (Page 7). No one of these points are "my personal opinion or investigation". Greetings. --186.151.62.200 (talk) 17:43, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

Opiniones en español

Hola, me sumo a esta discusión, porque distingo varios errores conceptuales:

• Primeramente, el artículo hace referencia a poblaciones latinoamericanas con alta carga europea, no a personas por cuota de colorismo o pigmentación. Este error es obvio, puesto que algunos pueblos asiáticos pueden tener tonalidades equivalente a europeos nativos, y lo mismo puede ocurrir con personas mixturadas en grados variables, que es el común de la región.
• Luego está el hecho de que los usuarios están arbitrariamente estableciendo un corte en la muestra a conveniencia, sin hacer comparativas con resultados realizados a poblaciones europeas, como para otorgar un corte de comparación fiable.
• Finalmente, hay estudios como los de LAPOP-Vanderbilt Latin-barómetro / Database LAPOP AmericasBarometer 2014 v3.0_W (A o B), que son transversales a toda Latinoamérica sobre este tema, y que no están mencionados: ver resultados, escala 1-11 (1=claro; 11=obscuro), véase baremo. Lamentablemente no son actualmente de acceso público, pero tengo los archivos originales para plataformas Stata 12 y Microsoft Excel, por si desean tener estos estudios.
• Para finalizar, los documentos, escritos en español, lo único que testifican es que sólo el 10,9% de la población mexicana (14 millones, al censo 2017) se autodefine como blanca (pag. 42 (pág. 43 del pdf), pág. 3), y éste es el dato que vale. El resto es sobreinterpretar. Pero vamos:

• Añadiría a este contingente el grupo denominado güero, pues el rasgo fenotípico (pelo rubio) es propio de pueblos eurodescendientes, y su manifestación suscita puntos de carga genética europea desde líneas maternas y paternas. Eso otorga un resultado de 10,9% + 2,1% = 13,0% en un universo de 129,2 millones (censo 2017), es igual a 16,7 millones.
• En paralelo, la categoría claro podría ser un punto adicional porque puede relativamente y/o difusamente compatibilizar con la concepción de blanco, aunque lejanamente. Con ello, podría extenderse adicionalmente la categoría en un 5,4%, resultando un total de 18,4% al grupo unido. Así, en total, los blancos mexicanos podrían variar entre 14 millones a 23,7 millones, y me parece que es el dato más estable que podría exhibirse.
• Por su parte, la categoría apiñonado es altamente ambigüa, y como tal puede hospedar a linajes heterogéneos y mixturados, por lo cual es mejor evitar la incertidumbre en el artículo, y situar el dato final al piso base de certidumbre.

• Postdata: La gráfica de la página 41 del documento (pág. 42 del pdf) no aporta ninguna señalización que indique atribuciones explícitamente a población blanca o no blanca. Por lo tanto, y como Wikipedia no es una fuente primaria, no se debe sobreinterpretar. Además, se caería en los errores antes señalados frente a estudios que son de colorismo y no de etnia.

Saludos. Wikiedro (talk) 18:38, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

I see no agreement with your interpretation. My Spanish is basic, so I will not be too involved in determining what is correct here; I await others' agreement on the matter. However, you have returned the page to what you think it should be without any agreement from others. That isn't the way it's done. Dhtwiki (talk) 20:53, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

El problema de dejar lo que existe es que se puede estar perpetuando hacia el visitante ocasional errores gruesos. Dejar las cosas al piso base de certidumbre es más adecuado, en vez de dejar una versión preexistente puede ser altamente polémico, como es el caso, y dar oportunidad a otros visitantes ocasionales para que intervengan, suscitando guerras de ediciones. Lo mejor es buscar versiones que sean estables y correctamente referenciadas.

De hecho, estuve revisando esta discusión, y veo que el tema ha sido cuestionado en varias ocasiones por usuarios anónimos y registrados en los últimos dos años, lo cual implícitamente nos indica que algo no está bien en este tema, y que el desacuerdo es en realidad con la versión oficial que usted trata sostener. Por mi parte pido disculpas por la rapidez en mi actuar, aunque al menos trato de transparentar lo más posible mi edición, aportando con referencias y estudios genéticos (a pesar de que muchos revierten sin siquiera revisar esos estudios), u otras veces aportando en revisar las referencias que se han agregado, y rectificando cuando hay ambigüedades que están siendo generalizadas indebidamente. Saludos. Wikiedro (talk) 21:00, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

Much of what's been objected to in the past is not that the figures presented are wrong but that the very idea of tending to identify is either racist or imposed by racist thinking of the past, as indicated by some of the discussions, and by such as the "pages from Google" linked to in the original post of this section. Dhtwiki (talk) 02:00, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

Dear IP editor/Wikiedro/Hueyxocoatzin and other aliases you may adopt in the future, you've tried to lower the percentage of white Mexicans under the same argument two times in this article alone, one in August 2017[26][27] and one in May 2018[28], to both, the answer has been the same: White people with dark hair are called "morenos" in Mexico, just like people with brown skin and also people of African descent are, because of this, you can't use this argument to lower the white population in Mexico, please try to not extend this discussion pointlessly once more as there's nothing to discuss in reality. Pob3qu3 (talk) 05:16, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

Para empezar, usted Pob3qu3 está lanzando acusaciones graves que no tienen cabida aquí. Como mencioné en otra parte, somos tres o cuatro IP diferentes (de varios países y ciudades) que estamos disconformes con cómo este artículo patrocina ideas erróneas y sobreentendimientos de referencias que no se deberían sobreentender, por no ser Wikipedia una fuente primaria. Anteriormente he señalado que este estudio corresponde a colorismo, por lo tanto es un error situarlo como un estudio de etnicidad. Además, si hemos de referirnos a colorismo, usted estaría ignorando el estudio de LAPOP-Vanderbilt, que entrega resultados diferentes para el caso. También le pido que no revierta cifras que no tienen ningún consenso: es mejor dejar todo en el piso base de certidumbre y estabilidad, que estar exponiendo cifras extremas y volátiles, y dudosamente sustentadas. Los documentos referenciados en español, en ningún lugar indican que casi el 50% (56 millones) de México es blanco, eso más bien parece un invento suyo, entendiendo a su gusto una referencia que se expresa en términos muy diferentes. Saludos. Wikiedro (talk) 12:11, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

This is contradictory, because in studios the word "moreno" is used to identificate people with brown skin color, in this studio made by MMSI were appaliced a 11 tones of skin color scale (A the most dark; K the most white), those indentificate themselves with darkness tones present a lower level of scholarity with 20.2% whitout studies, and 28.8% with incomplete elementary school, while 79.2% of those identificate themselves with whiteness tones dispose higher education, also, according to the specialist Federico Navarrete Linares of the UNAM, "the poverty in Mexico have a color face remarcable", the racism in Mexico for "moreno" or brown people is heritaged by Spaniards Conquerors and its present today in the popular culture like television, cinema and media, those declarations and investigations are directly directioned by Conare´ds affirmation that Mexicans assosiate the white skin color to beauty, more opportunities to make money, influenced by the Racist Media P.7, also for the 55% of people insulted by race or skin color result, and the preference (specially in Womens) to choose lightest skin tones for identificate their skin tone themselves P.40-42. In the read of this page from Google -nadie quiere ser moreno en Mexico or Nobody wants to be brown in Mexico-, also support the affirmations of Conapred adding that 20% of Mexicans are not happy for their skin color and 24% surffer discrimination; De acuerdo con la Encuesta Nacional sobre Discriminación en México 2010, realizada por el Consejo Nacional para Prevenir la Discriminación (Conapred), el 20% de los mexicanos no está contento con su color de piel. Además, el 24% de nosotros se ha sentido discriminado por su apariencia física and still supporting the affirmation of the Media influence saying that Mexican magazines usually not shows brown or "moreno" people in their publications specially in fashions, reflecting the racial discrimination in Mexico; l año pasado, BuzzFeed publicó una polémica nota que circuló mucho en redes sociales: ‘Así es como las revistas mexicanas reflejan la discriminación racial en México’. Su tesis es tan clara como contundente: las revistas de entretenimiento y modas casi no muestran morenos entre sus páginas e imágenes. The previous affirmation was sayed by Buzzfeed holding the Conapred´s figure of 64.6% Mexicans descriving their color skin as brunette or brown, including an extend comparation of the Average Mexican People with The People who appears in the Magazins, So, while you are saying that "Moreno" are refer to "white people with blakc hair", the studios are showing that the word "Moreno" is appliced exclusively in the brown color skin and it had a bad reputation for most of Mexicans who atribuyed the "Moreno" or Brown skin color to discrimination, ignorance and poverty. In addition, Wikiedro sayed an important issue in this discussion, the page White Latin Americans more needs a directly white percent not skin tones identification, so the 11% figure of Mexicans who described themselves as such white are foun in the page.42 of this document. Thas all. Thanks.--186.151.62.200 (talk) 17:36, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

Traduction of Wikiedro´s points

• Firstly, the article make reference of latin-american population with High European Genetic or Ascendance, no for scale of pigmentation and colorism. Thats and obious mistake, because some Asiatic population could have similar skin tones like the Native Europeans, and also ocurred in the region (Latin America), with people of differents mixture grades, its normal in the region.

• Then, is there a fact that arbitarly there are users stablishing in convenience a cut of the samples, without making a comparation with relaised European population results, for to grant a reliable cut of comparation.

• Finally, studies like The LAPOP-Vanderbilt Latin-barómetro / Database LAPOP AmericasBarometer 2014 v3.0_W (A or B) that are transversal for Latin America for this topic, but are not mentioned: View scale results 1-11 (1=light;11=dark), View Baremo. Unfortunatly, there are no longer avaible for public access, but I have the original archives for Stata 12 and Microsoft Windows plataforms, if you wants to know the studio.

• For finish, the documents written in Spanish, only testificate the 10.9% of Mexicans that sefl-definite as White (14 Millions at the 2017 census). (pag Page. 42 (Page 43. in the PDF) Page 3.) This is the worth data. The rest are overinterpretated. Comon to the below:

• It would add the "güero" group because their fenotype characteristic (blond hair) that is own for eurdescendant populations and manifestate High European Genetic both Maternal and Paternal lines. Giving a result of 13% or 10.9% + 2.1% in a population of 129.2 Million People (2017 census) with a result of 16,4 Million People.

• Paralely, the "Light/Clear" Cathegory could be an additional point, because it could be compatibilie relatively or difusively with the White Concept, although distantly. With this, it would be addly extend the cathegory at 5.4%, with a total result of 18.4%. At same that, the White Mexian Population could vary between 14 and 23,7 Millions. Thats the most stable data for exhibite.

• In other part, the "Apiñonado" Cathegory its very ambigous, and such as, it can containe heterogenous mixed lineages, for this reason the uncertanity its better to avoid in this article. And the final data place at the certanity base.

• Postscript: The Page.41 Graphic of Document (42 in the PDF) don´t provide some signal that indicate specifically White and no-White people atributions. Wikipedia is not a primary source, And for these reason, it shouldn´t overinterpretate. Futhermore, it would drop in mistakes previously mentioned, in front Colorism instead Ethnical Studies.

Greetings. Wikiedro.

Aclaration: Wikiedro is from Chile, im from Guatemala. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.151.62.200 (talk) 18:20, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

--186.151.62.200 (talk) 19:03, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

Wikiedro, you trying to separate yourself of the IP edits is nonsensical, the edits both of you have performed are, with no exageration, identical [29] [30], similarly, you are disregarding the current concensus respecting the state of the article, and is something that the other editors involved have told in this discussion [31], you are merely trying to impose your edits in this article abusing the civility of other editors. Respecting the points you made with your IP, those are not legitimate points either, because the first source you cite, from the news outlet excelsior, talks about the 2016 survey by the INEGI, where 49% of the population where classified as white skinned [32], not the 2010 one by the CONAPRED, similarly, the results of the CONAPRED survey itself disprove the articles about racism you linked, as in the page 42, a question regarding "how satisfied Mexicans are with their skin color" from 0 to 10 is included, with the average result being 9.4 [33]. As Dhtwiki pointed out in this discussion, you are not contesting the figures themselves, as you acknowledge their existence, but you, from your personal perspective think that they're wrong because "Mexicans are racist" [34], however, as other editor in this discussion (Evergreenfir has said), as long as it is mentioned as "self-perception (which is what this entire article is built on) there's no real issue here [35]. Pob3qu3 (talk) 21:13, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

Sobre lo primero, ya he dicho que hay 4 IP que están en desacuerdo con la versión actual sobre el tema, provenientes de diferentes países y ciudades (lo he estado investigando). Sobre el caso: El interlocutor no es genetista, ni es antropólogo para dar esa respuesta, además la referencia corresponde a una columna de opinión, lo cual no es una referencia válida para nuestra enciclopedia. En el corte que él hace se refiere a claridad, no a ser blanco, aunque luego prosigue el relato con este término. Es diferente. Claro es un término netamente de colorismo, no necesariamente involucra etnicidad, y si vemos el contexto del relato, en ningún momento apela a aspectos étnicos. Por lo que seguimos cayendo en el primer error: confundir colorismo con etnicidad.

Postada: Advierto a Dhtwiki, que pasadas las 24 horas oficiales para evitar inclumplir las reglas de reversión, proseguiré revirtiendo hasta devolver el punto base de consenso, que es de 13-24M, y no a 56M, este último dato no amparado por ninguna referencia, como se ha exhibido aquí. De lo contrario advierto que empezaré a convocar a más usuarios, especialmente a moderadores de la Wikipedia en inglés y/o moderadores de la Wikipedia en español (dado el antecedente que se tiene de Pob3qu3 en dicha wiki), para zanjar este asunto por la vía diplomática, ante vuestra negativa sin ápice ni matiz de reparo ante estas evidencias. Saludos. Wikiedro (talk) 23:57, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

No Pob3que3, we´re different persons, I´m from Guatemala, your source still support that Mexico have racism problems about skin color and racial identification, also that neraly a half of Mexicans identified themselves with light skin tones not such as white race, The Mexican-American Comediant Luis CK tell in a secuence "I love to be White", "If you are not White, you are not enjoyign all you would can" , for sure Luis CK says that as a joke for remarc the priviledges to being white, althought it describes the situation of United States, the conclusion could be applice for Mexico, where there are and emocional revulsion to discut this topic (Opinion, Ricardo Fuentes Nieva), Anyone who has seen T.V comercial, social magazines and telenovelas, can accept that the white people life´s in Mexico is more actractive, fun and beauty (like Luis CK says "who can discut that?"). However, the MMSI present some evidence of the difference in education and basics rights access. (Opinion, Ricardo Fuentes Nieva), According to this data basis, the first seven categories (darkness skin tones) contain 31.2 Million People while the other seven (whiteness skin tones) contain 30.6 Million people, within a population of 64 Million People between 25 to 64 years old (Opinion, Ricardo Fuentes Nieva), percentually, the results of skin tone identification are the same neraly in Conapred and MMSI 49-47% of total who prefers to identificate themselves with light skin tones, but the two enterprises taken differents approches, Conapred focused the preference of Mexican People (most in Womans) for light skin tones to sefl-identification, influenced by racist Media and the expansive discrimination of skin coloror racial, MMSI or Intergenerational Social Mobility Module focused in the education, health and economic opportunities in base of racial and skin color identification. Ricardo Fuentes Nivea finish his article in ElUniversal saying that "We cannot continue to ignoring this problem in Mexico, "-We must desmitify this taboo issue". You are saying that in my perception the Conapred´s figure its false because of racism, but actually i said that the figure of 47% by Conapred its about skin tone self-identificacion, not about a racial ethnical group, this is the problem, and the racism or discrimination have at least some participation hear (the main influence is the Racist Mexican Media), in addition, I found a figure that supports the 55% of positive answers about the racism in Mexico by ENADIS-Conapred, the American Barometer provides a figure of 54% in this read from Google with the title: And for what if in Mexico matters the skin color? ;¿Para qué sí importa el color de piel en México?, als in this other read from Google With 64% of people With Brown Skin in Mexico there are insults for skin or racial color;En México, con 64% de gente con piel morena, se insulta por el color. Greets.--186.151.62.200 (talk) 00:23, 29 March 2019 (UTC)