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::::I will continue to work on the sources. Meanwhile, I would like to add on that, unlike other sages such as Laozi or Zhuangzi, Confucius not only advocated private teaching for the commoners but also established a legacy of educational theories, methods, and principles through extensive teaching practice, which continue to exert far-reaching influence to this day. [[User:TheIntrospectorsfacts|TheIntrospectorsfacts]] ([[User talk:TheIntrospectorsfacts|talk]]) 17:36, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
 
== FirstGood sentencearticle status revisit==
 
Fellow editors, I'd love to call for some collective efforts to upgrade the article rating and hopefully eventually achieve the good article status, would you kindly provide insights and recommendations. I am currently filling in citation requests as a kick-start. Thanks! [[User:TheIntrospectorsfacts|TheIntrospectorsfacts]] ([[User talk:TheIntrospectorsfacts|talk]]) 18:54, 5 July 2024 (UTC)▼
We have to stop the name garble quickly, before even more alternatives are added {{ping|Folly Mox}}. Kong Qiu is terribly irrelevant and we have no reason to believe this was a real name anyways. We should just stick to Kongzi and Confucius—leave the other names for the article text. '''<span style="font-family:Lucida;">[[User:Aza24|<span style="color:darkred">Aza24</span>]][[User talk:Aza24|<span style="color:#848484"> (talk)</span>]]</span>''' 02:46, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
 
:A lot of the sources are just dumb websites instead of academically published sources, and for the books we do cite in this article, a lot of them are pretty old (Dubs and Creel, e.g.).{{pb}}We don't have anything on the evolution of academic opinion on which of the classics he edited, his appearance as a character or voice in early texts postdating him by a few centuries, and present his ''Shiji'' biography as if it were unquestionable historical fact.{{pb}}Off the top of my head, those are the big issues here, but I'm sure there are others. I'll try to add some sources to {{serif|Further reading}} or on this talkpage, and try to incorporate them as I go; ''prima facie'' the article doesn't seem like it needs a complete rewrite from the ground up the way [[Confucianism]] does. [[User:Folly Mox|Folly Mox]] ([[User talk:Folly Mox|talk]]) 21:31, 5 July 2024 (UTC)▼
:Pinging {{u|Esszet}}, who added "Kong Qiu" in [[Special:Diff/1190114053]]. I just put 孔子 in front of 孔夫子.{{pb}}I agree that 孔丘 doesn't belong in the lead sentence (much less primary position) any more than 仲尼. Our early Chinese biographies have a super frustrating tendency to put people's attributed birth names as the introductory term, even if they were almost never called that. Honestly I don't even see 孔夫子 enough that I would put it in the lead. My preference would be just Kongzi and Confucius, and leave the rest for the infobox and body prose. [[User:Folly Mox|Folly Mox]] ([[User talk:Folly Mox|talk]]) 03:00, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
::We can continue to improve and update the quality of references to build a solid foundation, then work on the organization, copy-editing, and fact checking along the way. It will be of great help if you can post up good quality academic sources that all editors can refer to. [[User:TheIntrospectorsfacts|TheIntrospectorsfacts]] ([[User talk:TheIntrospectorsfacts|talk]]) 18:08, 9 July 2024 (UTC)▼
:::My apologies; this is still on my radar and todo list. It's been a difficult week. [[User:Folly Mox|Folly Mox]] ([[User talk:Folly Mox|talk]]) 11:10, 10 July 2024 (UTC)▼
 
==Potential sources==
::I added it per [[MOS:FULLNAME]], the person's full legal name comes first, even if he's almost never called that (see [[Julius Caesar]], whose first name was actually Gaius). If it wasn't actually his name, the article desperately needs to be fixed, it says it was. As for additional names, I think we should actually relegate Kongzi and Kong Fuzi (which are rarely used in the west) to a footnote and add Zhongni. I'm not familiar with early Chinese biographies on here, however, what do we usually do? [[User:Esszet|Esszet]] ([[User talk:Esszet|talk]]) 03:25, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
Apologies for the late response. Sourcing for an article with a topic like this one has posed a lot of organisational challenges, and filtering out sources that are more suited to [[Confucianism]] or ''[[Lunyu]]'' than to [[Confucius]], checking for current TWL accessibility against the unavailability of Brill, and just finding appropriate sources amongst the hundreds or thousands that search strings return: it's been a difficulty.{{pb}}So, in the spirit of "something is better than nothing", a disorganised mess of potential sources, which I intend to annotate better.{{pb}}First is Eno 2018, already cited in the article, but could be employed more, and should be read by anyone attempting a rewrite.{{pb}}{{bulleted list|{{cite book|last=Goldin| first=Paul R. | title=Confucianism|date= 2011|publisher=Cambridge University Press|isbn=9781844651771}}|{{cite journal|title="Confucian" Values and Practices in Han China| last=Loewe|first=Michael |author-link=Michael Loewe|work= T'oung Pao | volume= 98|issue=1/3 |date=2012 | pages=1–30| jstor= 41725973}}|{{cite journal|last=Nylan|first=Michael|author-link= Michael Nylan|title=Confucian Piety and Individualism in Han China|date=1996|work=Journal of the American Oriental Society|volume=116|number=1|pages=1–27|jstor=606369}}|{{cite journal|last=Nylan|first=Michael|author-link= Michael Nylan|title= Kongzi and Mozi, the Classicists (Ru 儒) and the Mohists (Mo 墨) in Classical-Era Thinking| jstor= 24047998|date= 2009 | work=Oriens Extremus| volume=48 | pages=1–20}}|{{cite journal|title=Laozi teaching Confucius: history of a text through time|last= Galambos | first= Imre | work= Studies in Chinese Religions | volume=4|number=4|pages=355–381| date=2018|doi= 10.1080/23729988.2018.1560777}}|{{cite book | title= The Dynamics of Masters Literature: Early Chinese Thought from Confucius to Han Feizi | first=Wiebke | last=Denecke | series=Harvard–Yenching Monographs, vol. 74 | date=2010| isbn= 9781684170586}} {{!xt|Brill}}|{{cite book|chapter=Early Chinese literature, beginnings through Western Han|last=Kern | first=Martin | title= The Cambridge History of Chinese Literature| doi= 10.1017/CHOL9780521855587.003 |pages=1–115|date=2011}}|{{cite book| title= Empire and Politics in the Eastern and Western Civilizations: Searching for a 'Respublica Romanosinica' | editor1=Andrea Balbo |editor2= Jaewon Ahn |editor3=Kihoon Kim|series= Roma Sinica, vol. 2 | chapter=Through the Lens of Archaeology: Data Cross-Referencing between Received and Manuscript Sources Related to Confucius and the ''Lunyu'' 論語 | date=2022| doi= 10.1515/9783110731590-006 | first=Attilio | last=Andreini | pages= 67–82| doi-access=free}}|{{cite book | title=After Confucius| last=Goldin| first=Paul R.| publisher=University of Hawai'i Press|date=2005| isbn= 0824828429}}|{{cite book | title= A Concise Companion to Confucius | editor= Paul R. Goldin | series= Blackwell Companions to Philosophy, vol. 65 | date=2017| isbn= 9781118783832}}|{{cite book| title=Confucius and Confucianism: The Essentials | date=2010| last=Rainey | first= Lee Dian | isbn= 9781405188418| publisher= Wiley}}|{{cite encyclopaedia| title=The Encyclopedia of Political Thought | date=2015| publisher= Wiley | editor=Michael T. Gibbons | doi=10.1002/9781118474396.webpt0194| last=Yu|first=Jiyuan|entry= Confucius (551–479 BCE)}}|{{cite journal| volume=41 | number=3| work= History of Religions | publisher=University of Chicago Press| date=2002| title= Sacrifice and the imperial cult of Confucius | last= Wilson | first= Thomas A. | pages=251–287 |doi=10.1086/463684 }}|{{cite book|title=Confucius Beyond the ''Analects''|series=Studies in the History of Chinese Texts, vol. 7|last= Hunter| first= Michael | date= 2017| isbn= 9789004339026}} {{!xt|Brill}}|{{cite book | title= Creating Confucian Authority: The Field of Ritual Learning in Early China to 9 CE| series=Sinica Leidensia, vol. 152| last=Chard|first= Robert L. | date= 2021| isbn= 9789004465312}} {{!xt|Brill}} (obvs)|{{cite book| last=Nylan | first= Michael| author-link= Michael Nylan| chapter= Classics without Canonization: Learning and Authority in Qin and Han | pages=721–776 | isbn=9789047442424 | title= Early Chinese Religion, Part One: Shang through Han (1250 BC–220 AD) | editor1= John Lagerway | editor2= Marc Kalinowski | date=2009 | series= Handbook of Oriental Studies, Section Four: China, vol. 21-1}} {{!xt|Brill}}|{{cite journal| title= The way to the White Tiger Hall Conference: Evidence gleaned from the formation process of the ''Baihu Tong'' | author= Shi Jian | work= Early China| date=2022| volume=45| pages= 303–339| doi=10.1017/eac.2022.16}}|{{cite book| chapter= Borrowing Legitimacy from the Dead: The Confucianization of Ancestral Worship | last= Knapp| first= Keith N. | isbn= 9789047429296 | pages= 143–192 | title=Early Chinese Religion, Part 2: The Period of Division (220–589 AD) }}|{{cite book | title= Ancient and Early Medieval Chinese Literature| series= Handbook of Oriental Studies, vol. 25 | type= three volumes| editor1= David R. Knechtges|editor1-link= David Knechtges| editor2= Taiping Chang | date= 2010 | isbn = 9789047444664}} {{!xt|Brill}}|{{cite journal| last=Smith | first=Kidder | title= Sima Tan and the Invention of Daoism, "Legalism," ''et cetera''| date= February 2003 | work= The Journal of Asian Studies| volume=62|number=1| pages= 129–156 | doi= 10.2307/3096138}}|{{cite journal| title= Who said there was a ''Classic of Music''? | last= Waring | first= Luke | date=2022| work= Early China| volume=45 | pages= 467–514 | doi=10.1017/eac.2022.3}}|{{cite journal|last= Nylan | first= Michael|author-link= Michael Nylan| title= The Documents Classic as Guide to Political Philosophy in the Early Empires | work= Journal of Chinese Philosophy| date=2021 | volume=48| pages= 40–55|doi=10.1163/15406253-12340003 }} {{!xt|Brill}}|{{cite journal|title= Ban Gu's view on the "second victory" of "Confucianism" and the fall of the Former Han| last= Ess | first= Hans van | work= Early China| date= 2022| volume=45 | pages= 15–49| doi= 10.1017/eac.2022.13}}|{{ cite journal| title= The Haihunhou capsule biographies of Kongzi and his disciples| first= Mark | last= Csikszentmihalyi |work= Early China| date= 2022| volume=45 | pages= 341–373| doi= 10.1017/eac.2022.18}}|{{cite book| chapter= Appendix II: Six Genealogical Tables of the K'ung 孔 Family | pages= 168–176| date=1996|title= K'ung-ts'ung-tzu: A Study and Translation of Chapters 15–23 with a Reconstruction of the ''Hsiao Erh-ya'' Dictionary| series= Sinica Leidensia, vol 35 | last= Ariel | first= Yoav | isbn= 9789004482722}} {{!xt|Brill}}|{{cite book | series= Brill's Humanities in China Library, vol. 6| title= An Intellectual History of China, Volume One: Knowledge, Thought, and Belief before the Seventh Century CE | last= Ge | first= Zhaoguang | translator1= Michael S. Duke | translator2= Josephine Chiu-Duke | date= 2014 | isbn = 9789047425076}} {{!xt|Brill}}|{{cite book| series= Studies in the History of Chinese Texts, vol. 11 | title= Confucius and the ''Analects'' Revisited: New Perspectives on Composition, Dating, and Authorship| editor1= Michael Hunter | editor2= Martin Kern | date= 2018| isbn= 9789004382947}} {{!xt|Brill}} | {{ cite book | title= Dong Zhongshu, a 'Confucian' Heritage and the ''Chunqiu fanlu'' | series= China Studies, vol. 20 | first= Michael | last= Loewe |author-link= Michael Loewe| date=2011 | isbn= 9789004214866}} {{!xt|Brill}}| {{ cite journal| title= Confucius Repeats Himself: On the Nature and Sources of the ''Lunyu'' 論語 (Selected Teachings) | last= Crone | first= Thomas | date= 2022 | work = T'oung Pao| volume= 108 | pages= 289–318 | doi= 10.1163/15685322-10803005}} {{!xt|Brill}}, although jstor might have it depending on embargo duration| {{ cite journal| title= Constructing Lineages and Inventing Traditions through Exemplary Figures in Early China| first1= Mark | last1= Csikszentmihalyi| first2= Michael| last2= Nylan | author2-link= Michael Nylan| work= T'oung Pao| volume= 89 | issue= 1/3 | date= 2003 | pages= 59–99 | jstor= 4528923}}|{{cite journal| title= Confucius as Seen through the Lenses of the ''Zuozhuan'' and ''Lunyu'' | last= Cook | first= Scott | date= 2015 | work= T'oung Pao| volume=101| number= 4/5 | pages= 298–334 | jstor= 24754938}}|{{cite journal| title= Questions about the Qi ''Lunyu'' | last= Sanft | first= Charles| date=2018 | work=T'oung Pao| volume=104 | number= 1–2 | pages= 189–194 | jstor= 10.2307/26566287}}|{{cite journal| title= Beyond Confucius: A Socio-historical Reading of the ''Lunyu''| last= Vogelsang | first= Kai | work= Oriens Extremus| volume= 49 | date=2010 | pages= 29–61| jstor= 24047736}}|{{ cite journal| title= Thinking Beyond the "Sayings": Comments about Sources Concerning the Life and Teachings of Confucius (551–479) | work= Oriens Extremus| volume= 49 | date=2010| pages=3–27| jstor= 24047735 | last= Stumpfeldt | first= Hans}}|{{cite book| chapter= The Author as the Head of a Teaching Lineage: Confucius, the Quotable Author | title= Authorship and Text-making in Early China| last= Zhang | first= Hanmo | publisher= De Gruyter| jstor= j.ctvbkk21j.7| doi= 10.1515/9781501505133-004 | date=2018 | pages= 93–174 }} {{open access}}}}{{pb}}As a courtesy, I have not suggested anything that is neither TWL-accessible nor stored locally in my library. Anyone wanting access to the materials listed above tagged as {{!xt|Brill}}, [[Special:EmailUser]] me to request a copy. [[User:Folly Mox|Folly Mox]] ([[User talk:Folly Mox|talk]]) 17:38, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
:::"Kongzi" is actually not that rare in English language subject matter literature anymore, largely due to the inherited conceptual burden "Confucius" packs. I'd be opposed to removing "Kongzi" from the lead, as it's been the common term in the vast majority of published sources for about 24 of the past 25 centuries (and if the article were ever unprotected, unregistered editors would place it in the lead within the first few days anyway).{{pb}}We did have a "names" footnote for part of this year (possibly longer), which I smooshed into the opening sentence [[Special:Diff/1181767005|in October]].{{pb}}What early Chinese biographies typically do is add a subject's birth name which they're never called except in other biographies (which on its own is fair) and then go on to use the birth name throughout the article as if it was what the person was called. They also have a tendency to treat ancestral clan surnames (never used as part of a personal appellation) as a regular surname, which I'm pretty sure nobody except me is bothered by.{{pb}}As to Kong Qiu, I don't think I'm aware of which sources call it out as not a real name. It's certainly attested early. Maybe {{u|Aza24}} can speak to that? [[User:Folly Mox|Folly Mox]] ([[User talk:Folly Mox|talk]]) 03:51, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
 
:I suppose I might also mention:{{bulleted list|{{cite book| pages=xx–xxiii |editor3-last= Schaberg | editor3-first= David | editor2-last= Li | editor2-first=Wai-yee <!-- | editor2-link=Wai-yee Li --> | editor1-last= Durrant | editor1-first= Stephen | editor1-link= Stephen Durrant | editor3-link= David Schaberg | publisher= University of Washington Press | title= Zuo Tradition. Zuozhuan. 左傳: Commentary on the "Spring and Autumn Annals" | isbn = 978-0-295-999159 | date= 2016| chapter= Introduction}}}} [[User:Folly Mox|Folly Mox]] ([[User talk:Folly Mox|talk]]) 18:19, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
::::Hmm, then maybe we can keep Kongzi and put Kong Fuzi in a footnote? As for Zhongni, I defer to you guys, how were people referred to in early Chinese biographies? [[User:Esszet|Esszet]] ([[User talk:Esszet|talk]]) 15:30, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
:Oh right maybe these as well: {{bulleted list|{{cite book| title=Dao Companion to the ''Analects''| editor= Amy Olberding | publisher= Springer| series= Dao Companions to Chinese Philosophy, vol. 4|date=2014| doi= 10.1007/978-94-007-7113-0}}| {{cite book| title=Dao Companion to Classical Confucian Philosophy | publisher= Springer| series= Dao Companions to Chinese Philosophy, vol. 1|date=2014| doi=10.1007/978-90-481-2936-2 | editor= Vincent Shen }}}} [[User:Folly Mox|Folly Mox]] ([[User talk:Folly Mox|talk]]) 19:23, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
:::::That was my idea, keep Kongzi, with Kong Fuzi in a footnote. To be honest, I've never heard Zhongni, and I think we should stick to how modern scholarship refers to him anyways.
:::::ToCsikszentmihalyi's thatSEP point,article the(revised utter irrelevance of Kong Qiu makes me still think it should still be removed entirely. I don't thinkjust this is comparable to Caesar, since ityear) is anrather entirelyelegant differentat namepresenting andthe themany detailsidentities of Confucius's. lifeTwo are so sketchy to begin with.scholars I justsee assumedmissing itare was[[Philip aJ. posthumousIvanhoe]] name(2013) orand something—having[[Roger itT. inAmes]] the(many, firste.g. sentence is definitely overkill.1987) '''<span style="font-family:Lucida;">[[User:Aza24|<span style="color:darkred">Aza24</span>]][[User talk:Aza24|<span style="color:#848484"> (talk)</span>]]</span>''' 2203:0610, 1615 DecemberJuly 20232024 (UTC)
:::Oh I've guaranteed missed some top tier sources: this wasn't an investigation into any academic bibliographies, nor even an exploratory search of TWL space. This is what I have in my library, ordered by whenever I renamed the file most recently. [[User:Folly Mox|Folly Mox]] ([[User talk:Folly Mox|talk]]) 16:06, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
::::::There's a very fascinating if slightly multifocal article on Confucius's family background, which goes to some length exploring the subject and calls him Kong Qiu throughout without ever questioning that the personal name Qiu was genuine: {{cite journal | last= Eno|first= Robert| title=The Background of the Kong Family of LU and The Origins of Ruism|work= Early China |volume=28 |date=2003|pages=1-41 |doi= 10.1017/S0362502800000651| publisher= Cambridge University Press| jstor= 23354229}}{{pb}}I keep wanting to use this source for the article and failing to get around to it. At one point (in a not-strong, throwaway addendum to a footnote, p 12 n 35) the author even mentions the frequency of "mountain"-connoting names present in Confucius's ascribed lineage, including of course Qiu (which I realise immediately is not necessarily understandable as a matter of course). This source also contains one of my favourite passages in published academia, {{tqq|I do not understand this turtle}} (p 36). TWL access yes, btw. [[User:Folly Mox|Folly Mox]] ([[User talk:Folly Mox|talk]]) 23:48, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
 
== Semi-protected edit request on 4 August 2024 ==
:::::::Kong Qiu belongs in primary position because it was his real name, it was who he really was. Master Kong immediately raises the question of what his personal name was, and Kong Qiu is not completely different from Kongzi (or Fuzi), his family name is still there. Even if the subject of the article is known by a completely different name, such as [[El Cid]], his real name comes first because it was who he really was, the title of the article (as well as the vast majority of subsequent mentions) use the name he is generally known by. [[User:Esszet|Esszet]] ([[User talk:Esszet|talk]]) 05:44, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
:::::::I'd also like to point out that [[zh:孔子|Chinese Wikipedia]] uses Kong Qiu in primary position as well. [[User:Esszet|Esszet]] ([[User talk:Esszet|talk]]) 05:56, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
::::::::In fairness, the Chinese article begins "{{xt|Kong Qiu (vital dates), ancestral clan surname Zi, lineage surname Kong, given name Qiu, courtesy name Zhongni, later called Kongzi or Kongfuzi...}}" I think that's precisely the kind of {{tqq|name garble}} Aza24 mentions at the top of the thread, and it's a biographical style that en.wp has deliberately not adopted, so that most of the Chinese characters for people's various names and titles are shunted out of the lead sentence and into the infobox.{{pb}}If it's a question of {{tqq|who he really was}}, why not include his (rarely used, as is/was his given name) ancestral clan surname and courtesy name in the lead sentence? Both were real, legitimate names, inherited or given during his lifetime. They are both part of {{tqq|who he really was}} in certain contexts.{{pb}}If it's a question of encyclopaedic understanding, I don't think any of the three ancestral clan surname, given name, or courtesy name have a real need to be present in the lead sentence (or Kongfuzi, as previously opined).{{pb}}I don't mean to harangue you for a minor detail in wording, but it's dangerous to assume that "who someone really is" can be equated to one particular name, especially across cultural contexts that differ to a great degree. Having said all this, I actually don't feel super strongly about "Kong Qiu". [[User:Folly Mox|Folly Mox]] ([[User talk:Folly Mox|talk]]) 19:02, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::Yes, we obviously should avoid that "name garble", which is completely alien from a western perspective. If I had to pick out the single most important aspect of who he was, however, it would obviously be his personal name; even emperors (see [[Emperor Taizong of Tang|here]], [[Emperor Taizu of Song|here]], and [[Puyi|here]]) always have it included. It would be best to include it for the sake of consistency if nothing else. Finally, and as I said before, it already has his family name, so we might as well include his given name anyway. [[User:Esszet|Esszet]] ([[User talk:Esszet|talk]]) 19:54, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
::::::::::Given the cultural norms of the late [[Springs and Autumns period]], what makes it obvious that the personal name is more important than the other two names not included in the lead?{{pb}}Emperors are correctly introduced by their posthumous name, with their personal names or birth names mentioned second. Why should this article introduce the subject by their personal name instead of the name they were known by for the later part of their life and all [[Family tree of Confucius in the main line of descent|subsequent generations]] ({{Math|n ≈ 80}})?{{pb}}I should come clean that one of the names I've stressed as being as important as the personal name (the ancestral clan surname) is not likely evidenced early enough to give credence to, and probably an interpolation coming from the later tradition of Kongzi's descent from a ministerial line of the state of [[Song (state)|Song]] (see Eno 2003, linked above). [[User:Folly Mox|Folly Mox]] ([[User talk:Folly Mox|talk]]) 13:05, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
{{outdent|10}} According to [[Courtesy name]], he would have called himself Qiu, so yes, it was the most important aspect of who he really was – and Chinese Wikipedia agrees (by the way, that aricle says courtesy names were only used in writing and on formal occasions – is that correct?). Besides, Master Kong is a strange way to start the article – it would be like starting [[Samuel Johnson]] with Doctor Johnson. The fact that he has been known as Kongzi for 2500 years is irrelevant – Rodrigo Díaz de Vivar has been known as [[El Cid]], which is completely different from his real name, for almost a thousand years as well, but his real name still comes first – it's who he really was. This is a norm followed almost universally throughout English Wikipedia and beyond. [[User:Esszet|Esszet]] ([[User talk:Esszet|talk]]) 23:41, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
 
{{edit semi-protected|Confucius|answered=yes}}
:I'm not convinced, this all feels like a Westernification. The Chinese personal name of a sage from 2500 years ago is just historical trivia—not emphasized in anyway by secondary scholarship (which is what Wikipedia is chiefly based upon). At the moment it is literally the first two words of this article. I don't see why Master Kong is a strange way to start the article—its the only way he's ever referred to; [[Mencius]], [[Xunzi]], [[Mozi]] and [[Laozi]] have similar starting methods.
Where: Life>Political career. Second paragraph. The start of the fifth sentence.
:I hate to play this card, but the onus is Esszet to prove its inclusion against the long-term status quo. Otherwise, the page should be reverted to an older first sentence variation. At the very bare minimum, the personal name should come after the posthumous name, just like every Chinese Emperor article on WP. '''<span style="font-family:Lucida;">[[User:Aza24|<span style="color:darkred">Aza24</span>]][[User talk:Aza24|<span style="color:#848484"> (talk)</span>]]</span>''' 08:51, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
:I said above I didn't want to harangue about a minor choice of wording, but being that it's now been used four times in support of an argument, I can't regard {{tqq|who he really was}} as a minor word choice. I do think it's reductive and unverifiable. If we're going to talk about {{tqq|who he really was}}, it wasn't Kong Qiu because the words weren't pronounced like that until centuries later, and it wasn't 孔丘 because the words weren't written like that until centuries later.{{pb}}Right now I'm leaning {{xt|^Confucius (孔子, Kongzi, 'Master Kong' [vital dates])}} (but with proper formatting and tone mark). I'm ambivalent about appending {{tq|personal name Kong Qiu (孔丘)}}. I don't really like it, but wouldn't revert it. It implies to me that his courtesy name should come next, which is how we get back to the name garble nobody wants.{{pb}}The other Warring States "Masters Texts" figures reminds me of another point: that they (including Kongzi) were most commonly referred to by their personal names by political or philosophical opponents as a means of disrespect. (Laozi, who never existed, being the obvious exception). [[User:Folly Mox|Folly Mox]] ([[User talk:Folly Mox|talk]]) 13:37, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
::"Westernification"? Seriously? It's also the first two words in his Chinese Wikipedia article, so who are we to say it's a problem? It is '''not''' our place to dewesternize Chinese society (if this is the result of western influence at all); it would be condescending and perversely Eurocentric ("This is OUR job"). If it's fine there, it's fine here. And if you are so concerned about westernization, why not include the whole "name garble"? It would be the most culturally accurate thing to do, right?
 
What: A space is required before the first word [[User:Farhadk77|Farhadk77]] ([[User talk:Farhadk77|talk]]) 09:32, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
::As for the fact that the writing amd pronunciation of his name has changed over the years, do not get too concerned with adhering to the standards of earlier time periods. [[Alfred the Great]] is quite rightly not entitled "Ælfred Micela", nor is it written in the style of an early medieval biography; that would simply be living in the past. I also looked at the Chinese articles for the other people Aza mentioned, and, leaving aside Laozi, I saw that their personal names all feature prominently in the article (at the top of the infobox and in the first sentence, if not in primary position) - a fact that should leave no doubt as to whether Confucius's personal name should be included in the first sentence here as well. It may well be historical trivia to an extent, but this is exactly where it belongs: in the first sentence of a biographical article about him. Courtesy names are not included in the first sentence of their English articles, so that isn't an issue at all; I would still support putting their personal names all in primary position because a) it was who they really were b) it's more consistent with our own practices. Quite frankly, I don't think Chinese people would care. [[User:Esszet|Esszet]] ([[User talk:Esszet|talk]]) 04:14, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
:{{done}}<!-- Template:ESp --> [[User:Charliehdb|Charliehdb]] ([[User talk:Charliehdb|talk]]) 10:09, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
:::{{U|Esszet}}, I'm still trying to figure out what you mean by {{tqq|it was who they really were}}. Do you mean like in legal registers? My brain keeps interpreting it as {{!xt|"how they self-identified"}}, but that can't possibly be it, because it's unverifiable.{{pb}}Although [[MOS:FIRST]] doesn't address this specifically, I think in general we need a really good reason to make the introductory term of an article not match the article title. We'd have a significantly stronger case for this if things were reversed: if this article were titled [[Kong Qiu]], we'd probably want to start out with the term Confucius / Kongzi, the [[WP:COMMONNAME|common name]] of the subject in Western / Asian literature over the past few millennia.{{pb}}As it stands, the article is already at the title [[Confucius]]. Leading with one of his other names should have firm basis in sourcing or guidance. I'm not an MOS expert, but I'm not aware of guidance anywhere on the project that invokes {{tq|who someone really was}}. Do you have a link to any?{{pb}}As to the "Westernification" bit, I would probably have framed this as unfamiliarity with the relative prominence and usage of different kinds of names across a sharp contextual boundary that divides us from a deeply separate culture so long gone even subject matter experts struggle to understand it. Stating that a personal name is so much more important than a courtesy name for an early Chinese figure that the personal name should introduce the article while the courtesy name is relegated to the infobox or a footnote, is flatly a misunderstanding. [[User:Folly Mox|Folly Mox]] ([[User talk:Folly Mox|talk]]) 07:53, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
::::Out of curiosity, I checked the revision history of [[:zh:孔子]], and found that the introductory term had been changed from 孔子 to 孔丘 [[:zh:Special:%E7%A7%BB%E5%8A%A8%E7%89%88%E5%B7%AE%E5%BC%82/31877293|in 2014]], by a [https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:CentralAuth&target=Jessechi globally locked LTA.] Granted, I didn't find an instance of people changing it back in the 1% of edits I sampled from the intervening decade, and this doesn't really have much bearing on the discussion here, but thought I'd report what I found to be an interesting result. [[User:Folly Mox|Folly Mox]] ([[User talk:Folly Mox|talk]]) 08:28, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
:::::As for the MOS, see [[MOS:FULLNAME]]. I posted a link to this previously, please read my comments more carefully. Also keep in mind that Master isn't a name at all, it's a courtesy title, which is why it would be such a strange way to start the article. When appropriate, he would have self-identified as Qiu – right? I don't know why you're so hung up on his courtesy name, this is a western encyclopedia written in a western language by predominantly western authors, westernization is inevitable. Courtesy names are completely alien to us, so we don't include them right away, we put them further down. A link to [[Courtesy name]] is even included so people can understand it better. It does '''not''' need to be at the very top of the article; including his personal name without his courtesy name in the lede would do nothing to hinder people's understanding of the Spring and Autumn period. For our purposes and from our perspective, it's the best thing to do. It is not an issue at [[Mencius]], [[Mozi]], or [[Xunzi]], so why would it be an issue here? Finally, keep in mind that this is just a Wikipedia article, such an inane point does not need to be analyzed in so much detail. [[User:Esszet|Esszet]] ([[User talk:Esszet|talk]]) 16:28, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
::::::I did read [[MOS:FULLNAME]] when previously linked, which contains no mention of "who someone really was". I'm wondering if how you {{tqq|don't know why [I'm] so hung up on his courtesy name}} is a perfect reflection of how I'm feeling or Aza24 might be feeling about your attachment to the subject's personal name.{{pb}}Anyway, I agree with your last sentence above and am tired of this backy-forth and we probably all have more important stuff to work on.{{pb}}So how about this compromise: {{xt|'''Confucius''' ({{zh|c={{nowrap|孔子}}|p={{noitalics|{{strong|Kǒngzǐ}}}}|l=Master Kong}}; {{circa|551|479 BCE}}), personal name '''Kong Qiu''' ({{nowrap|{{zhi|孔丘}}}}), was...}}? {{U|Aza24}}, {{u|Esszet}}, I presume you'll both have objections to this, in opposite directions, but could you both agree to hate it so we can move on? [[User:Folly Mox|Folly Mox]] ([[User talk:Folly Mox|talk]]) 17:14, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
:::::::That solution seems fine by me. I agree with Esszet that its rather silly to discuss this so much—though immediately slightly fun, as I'm sure you would all secretly admit :) '''<span style="font-family:Lucida;">[[User:Aza24|<span style="color:darkred">Aza24</span>]][[User talk:Aza24|<span style="color:#848484"> (talk)</span>]]</span>''' 06:49, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
::::::::Sorry, {{ping|Aza24}}, I somehow missed your last reply, and really, {{ping|Folly Mox}}? Since [[MOS:FULLNAME]] says "the article should start with the complete version [of the subject's name] in most cases", I thought it would be abundantluy clear that I was trying to explain the underlying reasoning behind that policy, but if you really want to take it to the level of disingenuous [[Wikilawyering]], see [[MOS:HON]] (for Kongzi) and [[MOS:PSEUDONYM]] (for Confucius). No matter which way you slice it, the MOS is squarely on my side, I was trying to make a simple edit to bring the article more closely in line with our policies. It would say "Kong Qiu, generally known as Confucius...", so there would be no doubt as to which name is generally preferred, and thus far, nobody has made a decent argument as to why a small group of Confucian philosophers should form an exception to a policy that is followed virtually everywhere else (including almost all of the [[MOS:BIOEXCEPT|unusual exceptions]] in the MOS). I would have let this die, but I did not want to let Wikilawyering go unaddressed. I have little interest in discussing this further ([[WP:LAME]] anyone?), but I did not want to let a clearly bad-faith argument stand. [[User:Esszet|Esszet]] ([[User talk:Esszet|talk]]) 01:50, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::Wearily, I think this is the first time I've ever been accused of bad-faith wikilawyering, and the intent thought to be {{tqq|abundantly clear}} wasn't to me. I guess we really don't understand each other. I'll just state that the MOS guidelines do carve out space for exceptions in their wording, and even the brief bit of MOS:FULLNAME extracted just above says {{xt|in most cases.}} [[User:Folly Mox|Folly Mox]] ([[User talk:Folly Mox|talk]]) 12:43, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
 
== GoodEast articleAsia status revisit==
 
Right: Confucius was born in East Asia, but the Buddha lived in India, not South Asia: [[Talk:The Buddha#South Asia]]. Talking about double standards. [[User:Joshua Jonathan|<span style="font-family:Forte;color:black">Joshua Jonathan</span>]] - [[User talk:Joshua Jonathan|<span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;color:black">Let's talk!</span>]] 09:22, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
▲Fellow editors, I'd love to call for some collective efforts to upgrade the article rating and hopefully eventually achieve the good article status, would you kindly provide insights and recommendations. I am currently filling in citation requests as a kick-start. Thanks! [[User:TheIntrospectorsfacts|TheIntrospectorsfacts]] ([[User talk:TheIntrospectorsfacts|talk]]) 18:54, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 
:It's unclear what point is being made here. I generally think it's odd to use "East Asia" when discussing the region in a premodern context, though. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">[[User:Remsense|<span style="color:#fff">'''Remsense'''</span>]]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>[[User talk:Remsense|<span lang="zh" style="color:#fff">'''论'''</span>]]</span> 11:28, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
▲:A lot of the sources are just dumb websites instead of academically published sources, and for the books we do cite in this article, a lot of them are pretty old (Dubs and Creel, e.g.).{{pb}}We don't have anything on the evolution of academic opinion on which of the classics he edited, his appearance as a character or voice in early texts postdating him by a few centuries, and present his ''Shiji'' biography as if it were unquestionable historical fact.{{pb}}Off the top of my head, those are the big issues here, but I'm sure there are others. I'll try to add some sources to {{serif|Further reading}} or on this talkpage, and try to incorporate them as I go; ''prima facie'' the article doesn't seem like it needs a complete rewrite from the ground up the way [[Confucianism]] does. [[User:Folly Mox|Folly Mox]] ([[User talk:Folly Mox|talk]]) 21:31, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
:I see the edit in question [[Special:Diff/1245655069|has already been reverted]]. If we wanted to be super technical in the opening sentence of a generalist encyclopaedia article on a major historical figure (we don't), we could consider {{xt|China}} to be anachronous pre-Qin, or even pre–Roman-contact, depending on which type of pedants show up.{{pb}}But unlike say the [[Shang dynasty]] and antecedents, there's really nothing super incongruous about calling the late [[Springs and Autumns period]] {{xt|China}}. Although some cultural markers were already foreign and misunderstood by Han dynasty writers only a few centuries later (blood oaths, the written language, manuscript culture, aspects of anthroponymy, certain mantic practices, et al), most of the culture carried through and was remembered.{{pb}}For Confucius in particular, later developments include such deep intertwining of the concepts of "Chinese culture" and "Confucianism" that treating them as separate phenomena involves a lot of parsimonious redefinitions, so removing {{xt|Chinese}} from Confucius makes extremely little sense.{{pb}}Not sure what exactly this has to do with the discussion at {{sectionlink|Talk:The Buddha|South Asia}}. Maybe {{u|Divinemomentever}} has some idea. [[User:Folly Mox|Folly Mox]] ([[User talk:Folly Mox|talk]]) 13:36, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
▲::We can continue to improve and update the quality of references to build a solid foundation, then work on the organization, copy-editing, and fact checking along the way. It will be of great help if you can post up good quality academic sources that all editors can refer to. [[User:TheIntrospectorsfacts|TheIntrospectorsfacts]] ([[User talk:TheIntrospectorsfacts|talk]]) 18:08, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
::Thanks for your enlightenment. My humble point is that while apparently we see rightly Chinese in Confucius, we seem unable to show the same courtesy to Buddha by rightly acknowledge him as someone from ancient India. This is all more relevant when we know that South Asia is a much more political term, than east Asia, having a clear intent to erase the notion of Indianness from Buddha by placing him in Asia rather than Indian subcontinent. Just as East Asian Confucius sounds odd, south Asian Buddha sounds even more odd. [[User:Divinemomentever|Divinemomentever]] ([[User talk:Divinemomentever|talk]]) 13:49, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
▲:::My apologies; this is still on my radar and todo list. It's been a difficult week. [[User:Folly Mox|Folly Mox]] ([[User talk:Folly Mox|talk]]) 11:10, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
:::I misjudged you. Please accept my apologies for the shade I threw in the edit summary of the historical linguistic note I placed in the other discussion. I see here you can communicate quite reasonably. I don't have subject matter expertise on Buddha, and I agree that "south Asia" sounds unnatural in the context of his origins. Changing {{xt|Chinese}} to {{tq|from East Asia}} at this article could be viewed as [[WP:POINT]]Y, and is not best practice when trying to convey an illustrative example in a separate conversation. Best of luck locating sufficient reliable sources to convince your interlocutors at Talk:The Buddha that {{xt|India}} is preferable over {{tq|south Asia}}. I mean that genuinely, and I expect you'll have greater success arguing your position if you're able to communicate calmly like here, and avoid accusations of prejudice. Blessings, [[User:Folly Mox|Folly Mox]] ([[User talk:Folly Mox|talk]]) 14:31, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
::::Thanks a lot. You are very right. I’m a bit novice when discussing facts unfortunately and sounded aggressive but I will definitely follow your kind suggestion. I am very much in favor of Chinese Confucius when Buddha is let to be of ancient India too. I try to convey this point in my discussion on lord Buddha’s [[User:Divinemomentever|Divinemomentever]] ([[User talk:Divinemomentever|talk]]) 14:37, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
::thanks anyway. [[User:Divinemomentever|Divinemomentever]] ([[User talk:Divinemomentever|talk]]) 14:34, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
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