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Commons:Deletion requests/File:Australian Aboriginal Flag.svg

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This deletion discussion is now closed. Please do not make any edits to this archive. You can read the deletion policy or ask a question at the Village pump. If the circumstances surrounding this file have changed in a notable manner, you may re-nominate this file or ask for it to be undeleted.

File:Australian Aboriginal Flag.svg

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License agreement, limiting commercial (not personal) reproduction in Australia (possibly also worldwide), in the form of physical flags and bunting only, exclusively being held by one manufacturer. Bacon Noodles (talk) 01:56, 26 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  •  Keep Although it is not through-and-through public domain, in that there are some limited restrictions, specifically which company is able to commercially manufacture physical versions of the flag, the press release also clearly states that all rights, including remaining commercial applications and implied redistribution/remixing rights, have been released to the extent it effectively is now in the public domain. "It can be painted on sports grounds, included on websites, in paintings and other artworks, used digitally and in any other medium without having to ask for permission or pay a fee." While the public domain tags may not be perfect, another more appropriate and supported free license is surely close enough to be sufficient under the new changes and to meet Commons policies. Even the insignia tag would probably be sufficient, in-addition to a written clarification, in marking out that the clearest limitation is the physical commercial (personal production/use is specifically mentioned as being OK) reproduction of waving flags. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bacon Noodles (talk • contribs) 04:46, 25 January 2022‎ (UTC)[reply]
  • As the only (most definitive) restriction on the flag, which still remains, is that it cannot be commercially reproduced in the form of flags/bunting, a suitable template may be {{Trademarked}}, which is used on many other files on the Commons, which are considered as otherwise being in the public domain; since it has a history as a commercial product, which was transferred to the ownership of the Australian Government, the use of that template may also be more compatible than if it was applied to other flags. Bacon Noodles (talk) 04:00, 26 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • As I understand, the authority of the copyright holder in this case to restrict who can actually produce the physical flags is based on copyright, not trademark. So we can't call this a non-copyright restriction. And we certainly shouldn't be carving out an exception where we allow "small" commercial restrictions. This restriction is akin to an author prohibiting others from publishing physical copies of a book. A free work has to be actually free—no ifs, ands, or buts.  Mysterymanblue  10:53, 27 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Keep Per the press release, if we are deleting this, we also need to delete all instances of the Australian flag: The Aboriginal Flag will now be managed in a similar manner to the Australian National Flag, where its use is free, but must be presented in a respectful and dignified way. Anarchyte (talk • work) 09:53, 25 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Have you fully read the press release? Thomas can still assert his moral rights anytime until copyright expiration. Also, commercial usage is still limited, and the use is restricted to personal use only, no matter how "free" the flag is. There's no free distribution yet. George Ho (talk) 10:09, 25 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Moral rights are present in any work created in Australia under the Copyright Act 1968 (s 195AI) with no need for the author to ever actually assert them;[1] "[creators] cannot sell or completely waive their rights, but they can give consent for certain things that may otherwise breach their moral rights".[2] We would need to have a discussion about whether we can host any Australian works if we are going to let these moral rights prevent uploading. Outside of that inherent requirement in all Australian works, "moral rights" effectively duplicate CC-BY (provide attribution and don't falsely attribute). Anarchyte (talk) 12:28, 25 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
 Keep The entire point of the Commonwealth Government assuming the copyright was to end this nonsense once and for all. Fry1989 eh? 14:23, 25 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
 Info This issue is also being discussed at Commons:Undeletion_requests/Current_requests#File:Flag_of_the_Australian_Aborigines.svg. —RP88 (talk) 01:49, 26 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"limited restrictions, specifically which company is able to commercially manufacture physical versions of the flag" means that it is not available under a free license and incompatible with Wikimedia Commons. Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 09:20, 26 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
As someone else already pointed out above, trademark restrictions are not about the physical reproduction of images which is governed by copyright, but about (e.g.) the display of images to identify certain products or services. Regards, HaeB (talk) 12:39, 2 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Keep As per what has already said. The idea that this would be nominated for deletion in response to what the government did is frankly ridiculous. In the press release, the government, as the new copyright holder, clearly gives permission for the flag to be used. Superegz (talk) 04:38, 27 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Delete per the press release, "To ensure the flags themselves are of the highest quality and continue to be manufactured in Australia, Carroll and Richardson Flagworld will remain the exclusive licensed manufacturer and provider of Aboriginal Flags and bunting. While this ongoing arrangement covers commercial production, Flagworld is not restricting individuals from making their own flag for personal use." Commercial production of the flag as a flag is prohibited, so there is a non-commercial restriction which is incompatible with Commons. We should seek clarity on the exact licensing terms; until then, COM:PCP.  Mysterymanblue  10:40, 27 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
 Info This small post by a copyright laywer raises some interesting questions on what has actually happened here. Superegz (talk) 11:21, 27 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Copyrighted images, despite misconception, are not prohibited on Commons. Rather it is the nature of the copyright which affects whether or not the image can be on Commons, which is the issue of contention here. The threshold of originality therefore has no bearing. Fry1989 eh? 15:03, 28 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Keep – The Australian government took steps to make the flag widely available, liberating it from previous copyright restrictions. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 01:26, 30 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    If so, it isn’t any Public Domain or Crown Copyright license, since there is still a commercial restriction (regardless it being limited to flag and bunting manufacturer) and moral rights still being held (something that Public Domain and Crown Copyright do not have or support). We cannot say it is Creative Commons licensing since the Government hasn’t stated or release what the flag will be released under. Until such time, it is not free enough for Commons. Bidgee (talk) 01:53, 30 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Comment In addition other comments above, Ghouston said on UDR There's an interesting opinion at [1], that if the copyright has been fully transferred to the Australian government, then it would become subject to a 50 year expiry as a government-owned work. Since it was created in 1971, the copyright would be already expired. Yann (talk) 15:53, 30 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ↑ https://medium.com/@David.J.Brennan/some-questions-about-the-australian-aboriginal-flag-copyright-deal-f2f5f33a753c
Does the Australian copyright term apply retroactively in this case? I did some Googling but did not find an answer. Ixfd64 (talk) 18:03, 30 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Why it wouldn't? It is quite clear that the Australian government bought the copyright precisely to get rid of this issue. Yann (talk) 19:34, 30 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Not exactly. We don't know whether the AU$20mil copyright transfer was temporary or permanent ownership. Oh, BTW, Wikinews published this article: n:Australian government pays A$20m for copyright to Aboriginal flag. George Ho (talk) 21:26, 30 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

 Delete A lot of commenters above seem to be unaware of Commons:Licensing, which requires that "images and other media files [...] are not subject to copyright restrictions which would prevent them being used by anyone, anytime, for any purpose". It's nice that the government permits reproduction in certain media (sports grounds, websites etc). But the press release makes it explicitly clear that some other uses are still prohibited, such as commercial reproduction for which only one company is "exclusive licensed". There may be some confusion due to the ambiguous meanings of "free" - w:Gratis versus libre may be useful to read in that context. Lastly, the text of the press release only promises "free use" to "all Australians". But Commons is an international project, and its licensing policy requires images to be usable by "anyone" - regardless of nationality, race, ethnicity or gender. (PS: I might be willing to update my vote if these government statements can conclusively shown to be false or misleading. The Medium post linked above makes it appear possible that this could be the case. But one would still need a more solid legal analysis to be able to dismiss the government's claims and keep the file.) Regards, HaeB (talk) 12:39, 2 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Kept: As noted above, as a governement work, the copyright expired 50 years after first publication (1971). --Yann (talk) 06:49, 4 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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